Culling and ethics (touchy subject)

[Red Ink AUS]

Hi Guys,

What's the stance on this??
If the mating was successful but we have obviously noticed some defects in the hatchlings
DO WE:
BREEDERS

I) Not worry about it, business as usuall?
II) Do we not repeat that mating and take the genetic weakness out of the line??
III) Do we repeat the mating and put a new spin on it and call it a new morph??
VI) Repeat the mating hoping it was a one off to make sure??

HATCHLINGS

I) Business as usuall at a reduced price??
II) Cull the defective ones and salvage the good ones??
III) Call it a new morph and jack up the price??
VI) Cull the whole line to prevent the spread of deficiencies??

 

[TheWolfmanTom]

Hey Francis,
I have been very fortunate in this area. I have only had to cull 1 baby this year and it was an easy decission since he hatched very deformed. All the other babys have grown very well and show no problems (knock on wood).

 

[beardielover17]

I may be alone on this but I still stand by it. My feeling towards culling an animal or animals is this, I'm against it. This kind of ties into my feelings on euthanasia. Every living thing deserves a shot at living. While they may not be "normal" compared to the rest, I feel there's still a loving home that can care for them. I wouldn't sell it at a high price but give it away free to a good home. I would give the breeders one shot more at breeding and if more came out like that then I would retire my breeders in fear of passing the trait to others down the line. Genetic flukes happen and most of the time are recessive and skip generations and remain dormant possibly for the rest of the line's "life". Once again this is my opinion, I don't think less of anyone who disagrees with me. We all have our reasons and those are mine.

 

[Red Ink AUS]

Tom,
It's not just being fortunate mate, deformaties can form during incubation quite easily. So having only one in the numerous breedings you have done is a testament to the great care you provide your dragons and the knowledge you have in selecting good specimens when aquiring new ones.

Candice,
That's perfectyly fine mate, I would have a hard time culling an animal too. It shows how much you care for animals. I would only cull if absolutely necessary and only if i know that the quality of life for that specimen would be alot worse if it survives.

I guess what i an trying to get at is really breeders ethics here. Do we propogate a weak line or bite the bullet and retire or rehome them? Do we contribute to the weakening lines of BDs in captivity or take responsibilty and "man-up" so to speak and make the hard choices?

I know none of the people here would ever knowingly contribute to the detriment of BDs in captivity or purposely breed genetic deffective animals, but alas not everybody is the same.

 

[crypticdragons]

i would cull the obviously geneticly deformed hatchlings and freeze the other clutches. Then try breeding that line again the next year to see if the issues may have been caused by human error of some type, if the deformities reocurred i would either attempt breeding the male and female to other dragons (to see if the genetic defect was due to a mixture from the parents being bred together or the fault of only one parent) or retire both.

(edited post I did not realize how bad my typing skills are when using my phone which is how i responded last night due to being on 24 hour duty and not having access to a computer lol)

 

[TheWolfmanTom]

The only thing I can say here is thank you francis.

 

[northface75]

this might be equally as touchy a subject..but what method do you guys use to cull an obviously deformed baby? I guess, whats the quickest and most 'humane' way?

 

[zebraflavencs]

I have never done this, but I think.. Think that freezing is the most humane.. I could be wrong.
Janie

 

[beardielover17]

According to this article I've read, freezing is one of the worst for cold blooded animals. Luckily I've never had to do this so I can't say which method I use for beardies. Mice on the other hand. I have my methods.

 

[zebraflavencs]

Would you share that article with us, Candice ?
Janie

 

[beardielover17]

Would you share that article with us, Candice ?
Janie

Of course love!

 

[northface75]

ohh..noo, I would definitely not use freezing lol, that would be a long PAINFUL process of killing.

 

[zebraflavencs]

And that was exactly what I learned from her article.
Janie

 

[ladyknite]

Dang it Francis...........we really are part of your study. lol

.but what method do you guys use to cull an obviously deformed baby? I guess, whats the quickest and most 'humane' way?

humane is defined as a sympathetic and compassionate understanding of treatment. I prefer to think that whatever means is used, it is done with compassion. Anything less would be of a somewhat psychotic nature. I reason culling to be species specific albeit by deformity or issue.

There are factors that determine whether an abnormality that is apparent is genetic or a fluke. One baby in every clutch has the possibility of being either, but less likely to be genetic if it's clutch mates appear and grow normally. personally, I'd perform the testing (one test for the abnormality, one test for a clutchmate) to determine which it were. The adults would not be bred again until those test results were back. if it came back a single anomaly (not genetic), I would breed the original parents to alternate mates the following season. never back to each other again.
If the offspring were genetically altered......depending on the severity, it would either be rehomed to a foster with written contracts that it'll never be bred, it will remain in my colony, or it will be culled.

There are points to this I can elaborate on.......but it is a touchy subject.
I do agree with the post by Candice......freezing is horrid for a cold blooded animal.
With that said........I'm not into killing things.........but i don't believe in allowing things to live an unfulfilled and unsatisfying life, even if it is in captivity. And I'm definately not into watching things have a long, slow painful death. Sometimes, it's situational........................and frankly...........that just sucks.

 

[crypticdragons]

It is my understanding that the only way to possibly perform "painless" home euthanasia is the completely destroy the brain with very sudden very fast force. What I have read of some using is a Ice pick and a hammer. I havent had to put any down as of yet so I have not come to this dilemma. What I do know is that freezing is a extremely slow painful death for reptiles, gas chambers are slow (due to the way that reptiles breath) and the possibility of harming yourself if you do it wrong make it a bad idea, decaptiation does not destroy the brain which can stay alive and active for quite a while after the head is removed from the body. There are many methods that many employ. The idea behind freezing a reptile that needs to be put down stems from the human necessity to "think" that their dragon just goes to sleep and never feels a thing and never wakes up. There aren't many reptile enthusiasts that could drive a spike through their reptiles brain to put it down as it seems extremely violent (and if done wrong possibly painful).

 

[Red Ink AUS]

Dang it Francis...........we really are part of your study. lol

Definitely mate, I not only study reptiles but reptile keepers as well

Hence there has been a few more odd ball Qs coming from me lately as we seem to have had an influx of new members here, though some of you may think why the hell is he asking about this stuff it's not the actual answer I'm after but the reaction of the posters

 

[Red Ink AUS]

It is my understanding that the only way to possibly perform "painless" home euthanasia is the completely destroy the brain with very sudden very fast force. What I have read of some using is a Ice pick and a hammer. I havent had to put any down as of yet so I have not come to this dilemma. What I do know is that freezing is a extremely slow painful death for reptiles, gas chambers are slow (due to the way that reptiles breath) and the possibility of harming yourself if you do it wrong make it a bad idea, decaptiation does not destroy the brain which can stay alive and active for quite a while after the head is removed from the body. There are many methods that many employ. The idea behind freezing a reptile that needs to be put down stems from the human necessity to "think" that their dragon just goes to sleep and never feels a thing and never wakes up. There aren't many reptile enthusiasts that could drive a spike through their reptiles brain to put it down as it seems extremely violent (and if done wrong possibly painful).

That'll definitely do it Bri, no different to the sniper and the "apple" (medula oblongata). It will cut all brainwave activity. They are dead before they even realise they've been hit. Personally I would think that a CO2 chamber would be the way to go as it is a slow asfixiation, no pain is administered to the animal. The problem with it is the fact that a person may have to sit there for as much as 2 hours to ensure the specimen is dead when dealing with reptiles. I don't know of a lot of people that can do that as obviously the culling is already a regretful decision, but to watch for hours, that's cold brotha, ...ice cold.

 

[crypticdragons]

It is my understanding that the only way to possibly perform "painless" home euthanasia is the completely destroy the brain with very sudden very fast force. What I have read of some using is a Ice pick and a hammer. I havent had to put any down as of yet so I have not come to this dilemma. What I do know is that freezing is a extremely slow painful death for reptiles, gas chambers are slow (due to the way that reptiles breath) and the possibility of harming yourself if you do it wrong make it a bad idea, decaptiation does not destroy the brain which can stay alive and active for quite a while after the head is removed from the body. There are many methods that many employ. The idea behind freezing a reptile that needs to be put down stems from the human necessity to "think" that their dragon just goes to sleep and never feels a thing and never wakes up. There aren't many reptile enthusiasts that could drive a spike through their reptiles brain to put it down as it seems extremely violent (and if done wrong possibly painful).

That'll definitely do it Bri, no different to the sniper and the "apple" (medula oblongata). It will cut all brainwave activity. They are dead before they even realise they've been hit. Personally I would think that a CO2 chamber would be the way to go as it is a slow asfixiation, no pain is administered to the animal. The problem with it is the fact that a person may have to sit there for as much as 2 hours to ensure the specimen is dead when dealing with reptiles. I don't know of a lot of people that can do that as obviously the culling is already a regretful decision, but to watch for hours, that's cold brotha, ...ice cold.

Yep its slow and if you do it wrong possibly dangerous to you

In the same issue though there aren't many people that can make themselves "brain" a animal either you know. Most people just arent wired that way.

 

[Vesta]

WELL.....for your studies sake you certainly DID get a reaction from me!!! (HAND OVER MOUTH!! DEEP BREATH!!! EYES WIDE!!) Glad I have never had to make that kind of decision. And I am glad there are guys like you who can handle it!!!

 

[Red Ink AUS]

WELL.....for your studies sake you certainly DID get a reaction from me!!! (HAND OVER MOUTH!! DEEP BREATH!!! EYES WIDE!!) Glad I have never had to make that kind of decision. And I am glad there are guys like you who can handle it!!!

Would you though if faced with the cold hard facts and a decision needed to be made either way, keep as special care or cull for the sake of the line?