sand, or no sand, that is the ?

[Goatus]

ive been having allot of contradicting infro from allot of diffrent experts!!!

its been 50/50 so far half say use sand (they come from the desert after all) and the other half say NO!!!!! it can kill your dragon!!!!

what is your opinion please help!!

1 more random question?
does the size of your tank determin how big your beardie will grow

 

[Jason-Zola]

I have a large enough tank with one Beardy in it (Zola) but his tank is based with sand! Since when can this Kill your Beardy?

Please ereply

 

[beardielover17]

sand or any substrate for that matter is a highly debatable topic with beardies...i personally do not like using sand or any particle substrate for it poses a risk of impaction if it is digested and its not very hygienic...if your dragon ingests some of the sand, pet store sands especially, it tends to clump in their digestive tract which can lead to impaction especially if other aspects of husbandry arent in check...as far as the hygiene goes, if your beardie poops in the sand the fecal matter has a significant amount of liquid with it as well that seeps into the sand and will remain there after fecal matter is scooped out...it harbors the bacteria which is harmful to the dragon and also holds a nasty odor if its not completely changed out...sand is also very messy and gets kicked up into everything as well...beardies also come from a more compact soil/clay terrain although they do come across loose particle terrain every now and then...sand also can get in the eyes and nose of the beardie which can be painful or irritating as it is the same way for us humans if we get it in our eyes and with the colored petstore sands, it stains the bottom of your beardie....ive experimented with many particle substrates and non particle as well...i find my dragons do best on textured ceramic tile, reptile carpet or newspaper for the very messy dragons...and to answer the other question mentioned about the tank size...a small tank will stunt the growth of your beardie but not too too much...your dragon will continue to grow and when looking into a tank for your beardie, you want something atleast 18 inches deep and high so a good minimum size tank would be a 40 gal breeder tank for an adult

 

[TheVirus]

Hey,

Like beardielover17 posted, sand is harmful when other aspects of husbandry aren't met.

Temps and dehydration are what really cause impaction. If the animal is hydrated and has a decent basking temp(over 115), sand will not impact a dragon. Neither will mealworms, supers, bones, fur.....or whatever impacts dragons.

So i guess thats a benefit of sand. If a dragon becomes impacted, you know you have aspects of your husbandry that are insufficient. Without the sand, you would never know that your dragon is suffering from dehydration or from a low metabolism.

The flip side to this is its been proven that by keeping basking temps low (105), soaking dragons weekly, keeping them on solid substrates, feeding them soft,small, low protein foods (crix,silks), they live long lives.

 

[HUNTEQ]

If your beardy is young and less than 16 inches, you want to use coconut fiber bricks that you can by at petco because when beardies hunt and get crickets and sometimes lettuce, they pick up a bit of the bedding with their scoop, if your beardy is young, and smaller, the sand may cause impaction which untreated, can kill your beardy since his/her innards such as urethra are not big enough for the sand to pass through since sand is indigestible. Coconut fiber is and it's better for younger bearded dragons.

 

[BeardedDragonHaven]

Hello!

I personally prefer a newspaper base with a paper towl covering on top. I just don't want to "chance" my Beardie getting "impacted". I read where someone asked "how could a sand substrate kill a beardie".... Easily. Some calci-sand(s) have actual calcium deposits or little "chunks" in it (as some other sands do) and you need to sift the sand before putting it in your habitat. Your beardie could ingest the sand and become impacted by the sand not passing through the intestines.

Just food for thought....
My personal oppinion is why chance it?
Hope this helps,
Good Luck,
Barb

 

[villawolf]

Ok, let me prepare myself. First of all, ANY substrate poses any risk of problems if used improperly, if your beardie is incompatible with the substrate, so on and so on. However if used properly and with precautions, they can thrive on any bedding. However, I do agree that for baby and smaller beardies no particle substrate should be uses since they are pretty clumsy at that. So in essence, use anything you want, just be cautious and avoid feeding in the tank if you're overly cautious. I'm sure this is what most people that use particle substrates do. I mean many people don't have problems with sands, walnut, so on. I know I haven't. I uses sand in the past and currently use walnut shells. My beardies haven't had impaction problems and I know other people who haven't either. Although r-zilla is the only brand I really know that sells the stuff on a larger commercial basis, I would recommend walnut shell bedding. I dont know, however, if other brands out there are crushed or ground (zilla's is ground). And I also don't know if they might have sharp edges. Mine doesn't even scratch the glass in the tank. But regardless, I get all sorts of comments when I tell people even though they haven't tried it themselves. Substrate usage is something I've always been pretty forward about since I am a pretty liberal and open minded person. I won't go just by what I hear other people say. I trust more those opinions who come from experience.

 

[TheWolfmanTom]

I dont use sand for 1 simple reason. I feel its like letting your beardie live in a little box. No matter how fast you clean it out liquid will remain in the sand and over time it just isnt a good place for a beardie to live. This is just a personal opinion and the reason I dont use sand.

 

[crypticdragons]

As tom said above
Though yes the "hot topic" for particle substrates is always impaction that is not the biggest problem. The main thing that happens from particle substrates is the absorbtion of liquids from their feces. Thus growing parasites. The temps we keep in our cages are perfect for helping these parasites to thrive and infest your pet. Thus causing health problems and side effects. I personally havent seen any studies or wide spread use of running temps over 115-120 (i run 115 for all my beardies) So i would never suggest it. I have used sand and do now just how bad it can be for holding bacteria. I have not used walnut shells not because of the impaction issue but because of the possibility of shredding your dragons intestines. I personally think safe is always better than sorry that is why i use Tile for all of my enclosures. But thats just my choice and everyone does things a little differently.

Brian
Cryptic Dragons

 

[TheVirus]

I use a deep dirt substrate for my dragons simply because the dragons use it. What I mean is, dirt allows for the most instinctual behaviours. Simply put, it allows me to create an environment where all my dragons needs are met with in the enclosure. I only have to add to the enclosure. I never have to remove my animals from their enclosures to satisfy their needs.

Substrate can be far more than something they simply walk on. A good substrate allows for hydration, security, nesting, and brumation. It helps to create an environment filled with micro-environments.

When people re-create environments with in their enclosures, they focus on the over all environment of Australia that beardies are trying to survive in, instead of the micro-environments they seek out in order to thrive (i.e., the humidity in cracks, crevices, burrows/ the temp of surfaces they bask on).

Tim

 

[athena]

ANY substrate poses any risk of problems if used improperly, if your beardie is incompatible with the substrate, so on and so on. However if used properly and with precautions, they can thrive on any bedding... So in essence, use anything you want, just be cautious and avoid feeding in the tank if you're overly cautious. I'm sure this is what most people that use particle substrates do. I mean many people don't have problems with sands, walnut, so on. I know I haven't. I uses sand in the past and currently use walnut shells. My beardies haven't had impaction problems and I know other people who haven't either.

i second this post -- it's all about the follow-up after we've made our choices! i don't care what substrate you're using, if you leave the poop in there for 10 hours before you get around to cleaning it up, you've created an unhealthy situation. there are pros and cons to just about any substrate. i heard of a baby who broke his neck falling in his sleep from a high climbing perch onto a slate substrate. my dragon has been on crushed walnut shell for most of his life [and he's over 13 yrs. old] -- but 1) i've adapted my feeding procedures to avoid the problem of injestion and 2) he never walks or drags his tail through his poop.
athena

 

[TheWolfmanTom]

Hey Virus,
On the deep dirt substrate you use, is it a dirt clay mix?
Send me a pm so we dont hijack the thread.
Tom

 

[DragonLover1]

Hi i'm using sand for my 4 month old bearded dragon Safira and haven't had a problem with it. She was raised on sand since taken out of the incubator at the breeders. I feed Safira in her enclosure but on top of a fake rock i drop only one cricket infront of her at a time. She runs around on the ground on the sand and likes to dig sometimes. My temps are good 42degrees on the hot side 28 degrees on the cool side. She gets bathed every second day,water droped on her nose everytime i handle her. Safira has licked at the sand once and i believe she did it cause she was hungry. She is active,eating,pooing everyday and is a healthy little dragon.

 

[athena]

The flip side to this is its been proven that by keeping basking temps low (105), soaking dragons weekly, keeping them on solid substrates, feeding them soft,small, low protein foods (crix,silks), they live long lives.

could you please explain what you mean by "proven" and "long lives" -- is there a source i don't know about? has someone actually compiled evidence from the husbandry practices of a statistically significant sampling of owners of dragons who have lived over say 7 years old? if so, could you please send me the reference -- i'd love to read it!

does the evidence really indicate that all of these and only these are the factors that usually make a difference? for example, i'm really interested in the question of how much food and how often a dragon should be fed --if someone complies with everything on your list but overfeeds a dragon to the point of obesity, will it still live a long life?

thanks in advance for more info,
athena

 

[TheVirus]

Hey Athena,

I'm sorry but I'm not sure what your looking for. If you go to older forums, you'll find keepers with animals over seven. Its rare, but they are out there. You also have to take in to consideration that people own beardies that don't post on forums.

When I said "its been proven" I meant that people have had good results with husbandry like that. I personally don't apply that style of husbandry. I believe it is revolved around the keeper and not the beardie.

does the evidence really indicate that all of these and only these are the factors that usually make a difference?

No. There are other factors. Most people who buy beardies have little to no experience in reptiles, setting up habitats, and behaviour. The recommended husbandry (on beardie forums) is set up so there is nothing that will kill your beardie (short term). Any aspect of husbandry that the keeper may screw up on is removed. Beardies are extremely hardy, yet they are nothing like a cat or dog. If their environment they live in is harsh, or lacking, they don't operate properly and problems arise. The husbandry makes it so no matter how harsh, or lacking, the environment is, the dragons won't die.

for example, i'm really interested in the question of how much food and how often a dragon should be fed --if someone complies with everything on your list but overfeeds a dragon to the point of obesity, will it still live a long life?

No. A fat dragon is an unhealthy dragon. A fat dragon shouldn't be fasted in order to lose weight either. Its stressful on the liver. As the dragon loses weight, the liver is flooded with fat and can't process all of it. It gets stored and fatty liver can be the result.

Basking temps play a major role in weight. A dragon with access to 105* basking temp, will not be able to utilize their food as well as a dragon with 130* basking temp (slower metabolism). Really its simple. If the dragon is fat, feed it less. If its skinny, feed it more

 

[crypticdragons]

Virus not trying to argue just asking. hasnt it been proven that constant temps of over 120 for a dragon can and does cause organ failure particularly brain damage?

 

[athena]

Hey Athena,

If you go to older forums, you'll find keepers with animals over seven. Its rare, but they are out there. You also have to take in to consideration that people own beardies that don't post on forums.
When I said "its been proven" I meant that people have had good results with husbandry like that. I personally don't apply that style of husbandry. I believe it is revolved around the keeper and not the beardie.

Thanks for the clarification -- yeah, "proven" struck me as unusually strong wording, so i was just looking for the rationale behind what you included and excluded from your list --that and wishing that you knew of some definitive study i hadn't found -- you're right that most of us stop participating in the forums once our dragons successfully reach adulthood -- someone with a 9 yr. old recently posted a question about what to worry about now [as their dragon gets close to old age], and mine was the only reply from someone with a dragon older than theirs.
athena

 

[TheVirus]

Hey athena,

Don't get too caught up in my wording. What I type and what I mean, sometimes are not the same thing

Hey crypticdragons,

I'm not sure what temperature will kill a beardie. I've heard 115 by keepers on forums. Those temps are air temps anyway. Surface temps are totally different. As long as you use a low watt bulb that doesn't make the air around the bulb too hot, beardies use higher basking temps. You also have to take in to consideration the surface the animal is basking on. Beardies heat up through radiation (the bulb) and conduction (the surface). If the surface passes heat too quickly, they won't benefit from the bulb. If the surface passes heat too slowly, the don't benefit from the surface. You have to find a happy medium. I prefer using 1/4 inch thick plywood for a basking surface and flood bulbs for the bulb.

I read a discussion about a test that was conducted a long time ago involving temperatures and death. I can't remember where I read it or the scientists name. The scientist tied a monitor to a stake and recorded what temperature it died at. I believe it was 115. The scientist focused on air temps.

Tim

 

[zebraflavencs]

Tim was relating to me that same information over the phone the other night. Really fascinating, though, forgive me Tim, I am not as daring as you
Janie.
Saddleback pooper and Mo MO just consumed like 3-5 dubia nymphs !

 

[TheVirus]

Saddleback pooper and Mo MO just consumed like 3-5 dubia nymphs !

Imagine some one, who was not a herp fanatic, over heard you say that sentence. They would think you were out of your mind