Re-occurring impaction, tank pacing and running off.

[Mak]

Thank you to anyone who reads and answers these questions. I am new to this site and only made an account as I need advice with my Beardie.
Roughly six months ago I got a baby Bearded Dragon; she was the smallest amongst her clutch and since the day we got her she's suffered terrible impaction (pet store kept them on sand) and we almost lost her because of it.
She managed to pull through and clear out the sand in her system, and was good for quite a while.
She ate good, grew really quickly and was generally happy and handable, constantly wanting attention and affection.
Her tank setup was great and worked perfectly until Winter, in which the temperatures didn't hold and got as low as 12 degrees Celsius, which caused her to suffer and become impacted again.
We tried many things to get the temperature back up (buying new bulbs, a reflector, covering the tanks vents with blankets etc) but couldn't get it back up so resorted to buying a new, wooden tank (her old one was glass).
She was perfect and happy, her impaction cleared and she started eating again (she went off her food) but she didn't actually bruminate throughout all this.
The closest thing to brumination was two days spent sleeping in the hide.
It's now Summer and probably about a month ago; she started pacing the glass, refusing to eat live food (we've had to resort to canned insects just to get her to eat) and struggling with impaction even though since day one, seven kept her one repti-carpet, bathed regularly and good temps.
We've thought perhaps it was the wood tank (slightly smaller than her old glass) so recently swapped the wood tank back to the glass; but all the problems have persisted.
She's even squirming and running away whenever we try to pick her up and handle her.
Maybe it was from bathing her on a daily basis? (in an attempt to clear impaction) we've considered maybe she just wants to get out and explore (I've never actually let her roam around a room yet, because of the fact that there are heaps of hiding places and hazards) but have let her run around on the couches.
Perhaps she's just wanting to explore the rest of the house?
Regardless... there's something about her tank that's really stressing her out and we can't pinpoint what it is.
Any ideas on what it could be or suggestions as to why she's doing this?
Is it possible for bearded dragons to reach sexual maturity early? She's roughly 7 months and is already digging in the grass outside or on her repti-carpet; does she perhaps need somewhere to lay eggs, already?
Thank you for taking the time to read this; any help or suggestions you may have are greatly appreciated ^^
I'm happy to provide information on the tank, heating, diet or anything if required.

 

[PatsyB]

You've had your hands full with this one. I have a boy that used to run his tank all day long, nothing we did helped. We covered his tank so he couldn't see his reflection, we gave him places to hide we just decided it's his personality. I don't know much about egg laying behavior because my girl hasn't done that yet. I always thought digging was the main sign but we have another member here whose girl has dug a hole in her background but doesn't have eggs so I don't really know. They also don't always go into brumation and there are also many forms of what people consider brumation. Both of mine last winter went through a lazy slow down phase, sat on their hammock all day long, took lots of naps and really want to eat but when we took them out of their tanks they would run around the house like normal. Last month my boy did a test brumation and decided to sleep for 1 1/2 days in his new hide. We've had members here whose dragons have slept for MONTHS woke up and went back to sleep! So everyone is different.

As far as her impaction problem, when you feed her live bugs what do you feed her? The refusal to eat live food could just be she doesn't like what you are offering her. I would try other bugs and see if she will eat them. Crickets, dubia roaches, super worms, hornworms, silk worms, butterworts all good options. There is an old myth that they absorb water through their vents, that's not true. The only way they get hydrated is water through the mouth. They get this by veggies and fruits and dripping water on the tip of their nose and letting it drip in there mouth. You can also coax them to drink water in the bath by running your fingers through the water, they like to drink moving water. If she gets impacted you can drip water on her nose or you can also give her foods that will make her go. A little bit of olive oil either dripped on her nose so she licks it off or put on a green or piece of fruit. Apple and pumpkin are also good foods to get things moving. Remember that they don't go everyday and it's perfectly normal for them to go even a full week without a bowel movement. So maybe what you are saying is impaction is just perfectly normal. As they get older their bathroom habits can change too. My girl used to go in her tank and now will only go in a tub of water. My boy used to go every day like clockwork in his tank and now it's every other day or every 3 days.

As far as the temp in her tank. There's a couple of things that you can get to help at night time. A CHE is a great thing because it's a bulb that gives off heat but no light. There's also a new product being thrown around out there it's called ReptiHeat. I think it's been around for turtles but now people are using it for beardies. It's a heating fan that you put on top of your tank that blows heat into their tank. 12 degrees celcius is pretty low, during the day does she have a good basking temp?

Do you have a picture of her? Here's a link to some good foods to feed. http://greathousefarm.com/Greathouse-Reptile-Nutrition-List.pdf

 

[Mak]

First of all; thank you so much for the help! It's greatLy appreciated and has already helped out a lot!
That's interesting about your Beardie, since she'd never done the tank surfing when she was younger we just assumed something was upsetting her, but maybe it's just her behaviour too? Or she may just be one of those beardies who doesn't like being in the tank and prefers to be out.
It's hard to find information on the egg laying, because I understand she needs some sort of substrate to dig in but don't want to risk putting sand or other substrate in her dank due to the fact she was purposefully eating it as a baby...
If she's been having a problem with impaction, do you think it'll also affect her egg laying?
It's good to know about the brumination! I'd read up on Beardies a lot before I got her, especially on the brumination and I understand every Beardie is different... I was just worried since it was her first brumination and she slowed down a bit, but not heaps... if I was doing something wrong.

Thanks for giving me all the information on your dragons! ^^
The only thing you can really get over here (I live in Australia) are Bush Cockroaches (Woodies), Crickets and Mealworms.
She decided she didn't like the crickets along time ago, refusing to hunt them and not even eating when I attempted to hand feed her them, so I usually don't get them anymore unless there's nothing else.
The woodies she used to go nuts for! She'd get really excited, perk up and jump around whenever she saw them..., but lately she won't even bother to touch them. I haven't given her any mealworms because I've read up that the shells are tough to digest and can cause impaction? She's still a juvenile, but do you think it would be worth to try and give her one or two, just to coax her into eating? You can occasionally find silkworms here, but I used to have them as pets so I just feel horrible feeding them to her! Plus they cost an arm and a leg... if I can't tempt her into eating the woodies again soon, I may buy a couple though and just try to manage feeding them to her...
As for Superworms, hornworms, butterworts and Dubai roaches; I've never seen any sold over here so assumed they're not insects we have in Australia. I may try looking online and see if there's a site I could possibly order some.

That's interesting about the vent myth! I read up in so many places that they 'absorb' water when you bathe them; so perhaps it is a hydration problem because I hardly ever see her drink, and she doesn't drink while I bathe her. I read up that there's supposedly a way to tell if they're dehydrated by pinching the skin, and if it goes back to its original place they're well hydrated? Does that actually work? If so, her skin returns to normal.
It's hard to get her to eat her greens... she'll happily scoff down Bok Choy, but anything else is a struggle.
I've tried squash, pumpkin, carrot, kale, many different dark lettuces, fruits etc but she turns her nose up at all of them.
Fussy little thing ^^;
i understand Bok Choy isn't a good staple, but it's better than nothing at the moment... as for staples; you have no idea how hard they are to find over here! Endive isn't sold at any stores where I live as it's not grown here... and all the store owners have never heard of chicory greens and collard greens. The best I've been able to get is watercress, which she won't touch!
I'll try the water and olive oil trick, thanks for letting me know about them!
At first I thought it was just her poop schedule changing, but when I feel her belly I can usually feel hard lumps sitting in her bowels, and if I massage it in warm water, she'll occasionally go to the toilet.
The last week she's gotten a little better, she's going to the toilet in her pen every morning but it's only a tiny slither, not nearly big enough to be what she needs to be passing, but I suppose it's a start!

Her tank temperatures are doing a lot better! It was only throughout the initial winter (while she was still in the glass tank) that they'd dropped that low. Her temperatures (back in the glass tank now) are now at 32-35 degrees Celsius in the hot end and 26-28 degrees Celsius in the cool end. The CHE sounds good! She's learnt to cope with the red light all night, but the next time the bulb needs replacing I might look into getting one of those. The ReptiHeat sounds interesting... I haven't seen any over here but if the temps start to drop for whatever reason again, I'll also look into that. My only concern would be that it may raise the humidity. It's already a struggle keeping her humidity low so I'm unsure if that would make it worse.
Her basking temps have always been around 40-50 degrees Celsius; but she's always preferred to bask on the floor of the tank (30-35 degrees Celsius) as opposed to on her log or hammock. I've always assumed this was because she was the runt of the clutch. Every time I went to see her at the pet store (I'd bought her, just needed to wait till the tank arrived and was set up) she was always the little one lying in the floor looking half dead because the bigger clutch mates wouldn't let her up to bask.

Thank you once again for all the help and advice you've given! I really appreciate your response and feedback
Thanks for linking me to the food list! I really just need to print out a copy and take it to all the fruit and veg stores I go to so I know what I'm asking for!

This is her:


This is her tank setup:

 

[PatsyB]

You are welcome, she's a beauty! I would try to find a CHE for real cold nights because the red light can disrupt their cycle. I just posted an article from Reptiles Magazine about reptile lighting and talks about what kind of light they can and can't see. It's in the Dragon Health section of the forum.

Also remember that if she's not eating a whole lot...her poops are going to be smaller. I've heard about the skin test to check for dehydration but they also normally have some loose skin around their sides. You can tell by their eyes too if they are dehydrated they will have droopy eyelids. I would try to drip water on her nose in the bath to see if she starts licking it off. Mine will sometimes do it. When Luci came out of his 2 day brumation, he drank like he hadn't had water his whole life!

 

[Mak]

Thanks! I'm sure she appreciates the compliments!
Thank you for letting me know about the CHE lights and information on the sleep disruption. I'll look at the article you posted in just a second. She's always appeared to be sleeping, so I assumed she was fine... but I suppose not. Does it prevent them from getting into the deep sleep? Regardless, I'll look into getting her a new light

Thanks for all the advice! I've tried the nose trick and she hasn't licked it off, but I'll keep at it and hopefully I'll get her to drink something soon. Her eyelids aren't droopy, so I'm assuming she's hydrated... it's good to have these tips in case she does dehydrate again though!
Thanks once again for all the help!

 

[Hdrydr31]

Now I am new to dragons but when I look at your enclosure I wonder if she is pacing because of 1 the red lamp do you have a basking bulb/UVB bulb? I also wonder if she feels uncomfortable in her enclosure as there is no background? I read that having a background on 3 sides helps them feel more safe/comfortable. I know when I first got Izzy the first few days until I got a background on her tank she paced and was "ramming" her nose into the glass. Now that I have black on 2 sides and the back side is a rock landscape she doesn't do that anymore. Just my 2 cents.
Sometimes Izzy will drink while in the bath sometimes not, I will dribble some on her nose and it's 50/50 on if she will lick it off. but I figure since she is eating a good variety of meaty bugs with good moisture she is hydrated enough.

 

[Mak]

Thank you for responding!
I'm looking into getting her a new bulb after finding out that it disrupts their sleep cycle, as for the cause of pacing... I've had her for roughly six months and she's always had a red bulb. Even at the pet store I got her from, she was in a tank with a red bulb. She'd never paced before with the bulb so I assumed it was something new? Even though it didn't disturb her back then though, that mightn't be the case now.
She has a Fluorescent Tube running the length of the tank (silver thing at top) and was told that would be sufficient for UV? Does she also need a bulb? I've purchased a basking bulb I case the temperatures dropped again, as I was told it is used for intense heat/basking; do you think I need to set it up? If so do I put it near the red light or take that out? Thanks, sorry to be a pain!
We used to have a background on her glass tank (one in the picture) as she was puffing at her reflection when we first got her and that solved the problem, however it got damaged while swapping her tanks so we've had to take it off until we can get a new one...
I don't think the pacing is from the background because over winter she was in a wood tank in order to trap the heat in better (three sides wood, one glass side) and she still paced in that even though it had black sides.
I'm half thinking she's just doing it for attention now.
Thanks for letting me know about Izzy and how you fixed it! It'll be interesting to see once I get the new background if my girl will stop glass surfing.
It seems as if she's hydrated, I've attempted the nose trick several times and she still has yet to lick it off.
Thanks for giving me your input! I really appreciate the help.

 

[Hdrydr31]

Your welcome. Did you get a chance to read the lighting article? It has a ton of great info on UVB bulbs. I have Izzy in a 55 gal her basking spot Exo terra sun glo 50 wt it gets between 90-110 degrees, next to that is her UVB Exo terra 150 compact in a dome fixture that range is about 80-90 degrees, then over her cool side is a Reptisun 10.0 UVB fluorescent tube that area comes down to 70-75. I don't use a red bulb at all even at night HOWEVER it's important to know that I have bad Rheumatoid Arthritis and others so we keep our house around 73-75 degrees. So her enclosure stays warmish even at night, but they like to sleep on their cool side but if it dips down below 68 degrees I will use a ceramic heater so no light just heat.
Hope that helps, clear as mud right lol good luck.

 

[PatsyB]

When you say fluorescent bulb do you mean a reptile fluorescent or just a normal fluorescent bulb? You need to have some sort of reptile fluorescent bulb that is designed to give off UVB. you also need a day time basking bulb that is going to mimic natural light. They need a basking "spot" that gets to about 110 degrees Fahrenheit it helps them digest their food( and help with impaction). The tank on the opposite side of the basking area should be around 80 degrees Fahrenheit. Get rid of the red bulb completely and get a CHE. Read the thread on lighting, it is helpful

 

[PatsyB]

I typed the above on my phone and wanted to add to it. I wanted to say get rid of the red light all together and get a daytime basking bulb and get a CHE to use only at night if it gets too cold. You can get a basking bulb designed for reptiles or if they have them in Australia, you can use a PAR 38 halogen flood light bulb. What are you using to measure her temperatures? You need to be able to measure her temps in her basking spot and on the cool side of her tank. Lots of us use digital probe thermometers because they are easy to just attach the probe to the spot they sit in or a temp gun is also real good.

 

[Mak]

Yes I did thanks! The article was very helpful and informative; wish I had acces to something like this when I was initially reading up! The tank currently has a 30W Fluorescent Tube from Reptile One. The tube is fitted in a 30W Fluorescent Reflector which runs the length of the tank. The red heat light is a 150W and I'm sorry, I can't remember the brand but I think it may have been Reptile One as well. I have a digital probe thermometer which has two probes, one for the cool end and one for the hot and a Thermostat which helps regulate the temperatures throughout the tank. The tank also has a digital humidity probe. All of these except the humidity gauge are from actual reptile brands.
I looked at the basking bulb I picked up, and unfortunately it's actually cracked! I'll return it to the store whenever I get the chance and swap it over for a new one. I'll also look into getting a CHE for the winter.
Currently with the tank setup, her hot end is 32-35 degrees celcius (89.6 - 95 Farenheit) throughout the day and around 30-31 (86 - 87.8 Farenheit) at night. Her cool end is 26-28 degrees celcius (78.8 - throughout the day and 23-26 throughout the night. Her basking spot is usually 40-50 degrees celcius.

 

[Mak]

Sorry! I clicked post before I'd done replying...
My apologies.

Yes I did thanks! The article was very helpful and informative; wish I had acces to something like this when I was initially reading up! The tank currently has a 30W Fluorescent Tube from Reptile One. The tube is fitted in a 30W Fluorescent Reflector which runs the length of the tank. The red heat light is a 150W and I'm sorry, I can't remember the brand but I think it may have been Reptile One as well. I have a digital probe thermometer which has two probes, one for the cool end and one for the hot and a Thermostat which helps regulate the temperatures throughout the tank. The tank also has a digital humidity probe. All of these except the humidity gauge are from actual reptile brands.
Aside from the Thermometer, I use a Temp gun to measure the basking spot.

I looked at the basking bulb I picked up, and unfortunately it's actually cracked! I'll return it to the store whenever I get the chance and swap it over for a new one. I'll also look into getting a CHE for the winter.

Currently with the tank setup, her hot end is 32-35 degrees celcius (89.6 - 95 Farenheit) throughout the day and around 30-31 (86 - 87.8 Farenheit) at night. Her cool end is 26-28 degrees celcius (78.8 - 82.4 Farenheit) throughout the day and 23-26 (73.4 - 78.8 Farenheit) throughout the night. Her basking spot is usually 40-50 degrees celcius (104-122 Farenheit)

Thanks for all the help Hdrydr31! It was good to learn about your temps so I can compare them to my tank.

Thank you PatsyB! You've been a great help!
Thanks for letting me know about the basking spot and basking bulbs; as far as I was concerned her basking "spot" was the part on the net where the red light is directly overhead.
After reading the article and finding out about all this, I'm definitely getting a basking bulb.

 

[Hdrydr31]

That's what I like about these forums you get alot of information as we all love our scaly friends I know I did a ton of research on Beardies and I am still learning. The lighting is and can be confusing and I think many of us struggle with what to get when to use it how close it needs to be to them and it varies on your climate and the seasons not to mention the cycle that your friend is in.. Are they shedding, are they going into or coming out of brumation, are they new, do they have others with them... I think the list could go on and on... I know for me we just lost our rescued bird the other day so where her flight cage was now Izzy holds that spot in the living room so the change in rooms has effected her temps a bit so I will have to adjust to get them up a bit...
I understand living where you do you don't have as much access to many of the products that we have over here in the states so that leads to another whole layer of difficulty. It's not as easy as going here or there.

 

[PatsyB]

They need to have a drop in temps in their tanks at night just like they do in their natural environment. So it's okay for the whole tank to get 23 celcius or a bit lower. So no need to have a hot and cold side at night. A CHE is if it drops below 18 celsius in the whole tank. 50 degrees celsius is way too high, 43 no higher than 46 is good.

 

[Hdrydr31]

This is from Zoo Med:

• Daytime Terrarium Temperature:83-88° F.
• Basking Spot: 95-105° F
• Nighttime Temperature: 70°- 80°F.
• A nighttime drop in temperature is natural and can be accomplished by turning off all overhead heating devices, and leaving a ReptiTherm® under tank heater (UTH) on 24 hours a day.
• Zoo Med's Basking Spot Lamp, PowerSun®, Repti Halogen, Ceramic Heat Emitters, and ReptiTherm® UTH are good choices for heating Bearded Dragon enclosures

Importance of UVB

• UVB lighting and heat are
  essential for Bearded Dragons to process calcium in captivity.
• Without UVB lighting Bearded Dragons will develop serious health problems such as Metabolic Bone Disease (MBD).
• UVB Lighting should be left on for 10-12 hours per day and turned off at night.

Here is another good source for temps for all stages:
http://www.beardeddragoncare101.com/proper-temperatures-bearded-dragon/

 

[Hdrydr31]

They need to have a drop in temps in their tanks at night just like they do in their natural environment. So it's okay for the whole tank to get 23 celcius or a bit lower. So no need to have a hot and cold side at night. A CHE is if it drops below 18 celsius in the whole tank. 50 degrees celsius is way too high, 43 no higher than 46 is good.

I agree with PatsyB 50 degrees celsius is way to hot you can burn their skin, eyes...
since moving Izzy to the living room I changed where her basking lamp was and I was seeing her "avoiding" the light being on the outskirts of it, so I took the temp and it was reading 117 F so I moved it away more and it's now back down to 100 F and she is back to being right under it..

 

[Mak]

Thanks so much for all your help! I'm going to the pet store in an hour or two so I'm definitely picking up a CHE and Basking light. Currently I'm having to leave the red light on at night to keep the temps up, which I now know is too hot at night and disrupts her sleep. I'll work on monitoring and getting those temps right... she's never really been one to bask so I'm wondering if it's been my fault all along? Or if she just prefers not too.
Hopefully the change in lamps will work and I'll reposition the net if required.
Temperatures can be such a pain ^^; and it's hard to find information on them. So I thank you both greatly for all your help and the link to the lighting page!
Hopefully my girl will be more comfortable soon.

 

[PatsyB]

Good luck. Light have always been an issue for me. At one time I could have opened a light store with all the different ones I had here.

 

[Mak]

Haha they are indeed, confusing.
Thanks once again for all your help!

 

[Hdrydr31]

Yes they really are confusing that's for sure!! I still am not a 100% sure on what I'm doing the absolute right thing myself... lol ...
PatsyB I can relate I always overdo things I also have a ton of bulbs laying around.... I am a bit OCD I make sure I have backups in case they brake/go out. Then there is the lower and higher watts.... lol

But Izzy is growing nicely, shedding well, eating a wide variety of bugs, eating a good amount of greens finally, she is social/friendly...so I must be doing something right