mine is 13 years old and i'm looking to "pick the brains" of someone experienced with recognizing the differences between normal aging changes vs. longevity problems to watch for -- and end-of-life prognosis [how much longer do we have? will we know if/when we should ask the vet to euthanize him? etc.]
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old age
- Thread starter athena
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whats going on with your beardie right now? The oldest i have ever seen was a 15 year old but that does not mean 15 is the longest they can live. Whats going on? Is his health deteriorating drastically? Need more info please.
to answer your query for more info -- two specific changes that have already occurred are 1) he doesn't climb up to his high perch anymore and 2) he's shedding a lot less + less frequently [he's been to one of the vets listed on Melissa Kaplan's site who says his bones and muscle tone are both healthy] -- a change i was expecting (based on reading) is the balance of his diet hasn't really become very much more vegetarian since he still loves those tasty crickets. i'm posting to find out what to look for and whether any aging problems can be avoided + how -- the 2 changes that i've already observed don't seem to indicate problems at this point, unless you have experience/info to refute that assumption. thanks.
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The not traveling as high is because older dragons do not like it as hot as younger dragnos do. The lowered amount of shedding is because he is not growing any longer so he sheds much less. Yuo do need to kind of force a lower protein intake 80% vegetarian diets are needed for long life because they can get fatty liver disease. But honestly your dragon sounds fine i would wager he has many years to come. Do you have a picture?
Hello, Athena and welcome to the forum.
Based on what I've read in this post, I don't believe you have anything to worry about for now. Old age is an odd thing and as with any animal or human, you know when the time has come. As long as your beardie is moving around, eating, pooping and acting normal, I think you can count your blessings. You've had a vet check him out and nothing seems alarming there.
Your intuition will let you know when there is a shift in his life. I think for now, you should enjoy this time with him and be proud that you have had your beardie for so long.
Based on what I've read in this post, I don't believe you have anything to worry about for now. Old age is an odd thing and as with any animal or human, you know when the time has come. As long as your beardie is moving around, eating, pooping and acting normal, I think you can count your blessings. You've had a vet check him out and nothing seems alarming there.
Your intuition will let you know when there is a shift in his life. I think for now, you should enjoy this time with him and be proud that you have had your beardie for so long.
He's eating less protein because he's eating less in total than when he was a young adult -- but he's nowhere near 80% vegetarian -- since he's 13 and healthy, he seems to have done a pretty good job of self-regulation [for example, when his growing tapered off, he lost his taste for kale] -- since i started with a snake, i learned the habit of imposing a limit on the frequency of protein eating -- the rule of thumb being: no next protein meal until poop comes out. BTW, for snakes, the best way to shorten their lifespan "with love" is overfeeding, which i suspect may also be true for lizards.crypticdragons said:You do need to kind of force a lower protein intake 80% vegetarian diets are needed for long life because they can get fatty liver disease. But honestly your dragon sounds fine i would wager he has many years to come. Do you have a picture?
Being tech challenged i've never posted pic's, but he looks like a smaller version of Dr. Evil.
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for posting pictures all you have to do is get a photobucket.com account. they are free. you upload your pictures there. Then you copy the IMG code under the picture and post it here ;D
Renee said:Hello, Athena and welcome to the forum.
... I think for now, you should enjoy this time with him and be proud that you have had your beardie for so long.
thanks for the welcome: do you know whether anyone who frequents this forum has [f]actual personal experience with dragons over 10 to 12 years old? -- and how i could "ping" them?
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me my old neighbor rescued a 12 year old dragon last year before i deployed. He was emaciated/dehydrated/and almost paralyzed when they got him. We brought him back though. Took about 4 months to get him in ok shape. He was oddly parasite free which i didnt expect. he had to go on liquid calcium due to how brittle his bones were and liquid vitamin b twice a week and his food had to be blended and syringe fed to him for a while. But before i deployed he was finally chasing food around. (i havent heard from them since i have been back as they moved and i hate my new neighbors lol :-[)
Hey Athena,
I doubt any one on here has dragons that old. Old dragons like yours is very rare.
I wouldn't change his diet. What you have been doing is proven (by you) in my opinion.
I've never had dragons long enough for them to die of old age (sold them after breeding years past), but I have had iguanas, many chameleons, and wild caught animals die of old age. I had a Veiled Chameleon die at seven years old (which is old for a chameleon) and I currently have two nine year old geckos.
In my experience, they all show their age similarly. Hard time hunting, more time sleeping, loss of appetite, lethargy, slow movement, and less active. They will bask and eat and look good (just older) until it starts going down hill. When it goes down hill it goes down hill fast.
I disagree with the above poster about older dragons using lower basking temps. I find it to be the opposite. The larger the mass of the animal, the longer it has to bask at the same temp to achieve desired core temps. Some people (not saying the above poster) don't have a real good understanding of behaviour and husbandry. It appears their animals don't like to bask at higher basking temps when they reach adult hood, but they fail to realize its the way they present the temps that the beardies don't like.
Its because of high watt bulbs, poor air movement, and poor surface to bask on. A lot of people use screen top enclosures for their dragons. Trying to heat a screen top enclosure is like trying to heat your home with no roof. It would take alot of heat. Same with the enclosure. They use a high watt bulb to achieve their desired temps. The hot bulb shoots heat down in to the enclosure and the hot air rises and is replaced by the cooler air in the room. The high watt bulbs make the air around the bulb hot! Beardies don't like hot air temps. I'm sure in the wild most beardies would be under ground when air temps get HOT. I use low watt bulbs and solid tops to achieve desired temps. All my sub adult and adult dragons use basking options (surface temps) as high as 130*. The air temps around the lights are not as high as the air temps around the high watt bulbs other keepers use. I achieve the basking temp by moving the basking spot closer to the bulb and using a surface that transfers heat well, but not fast.
I also agree with you on the "not feeding them too much" philosophy. Fat dragons that go off food (whether sick or forced) run a high risk of fatty liver. The kidneys are getting flooded with fat and can't process it all and it gets stored there. Its not from feeding too much protein. Its from feeding too much food all together.
All in all, congratulations on keeping a dragon for so long. Its really an accomplishment rarely seen on beardie forums. Keep up the good work.
I doubt any one on here has dragons that old. Old dragons like yours is very rare.
I wouldn't change his diet. What you have been doing is proven (by you) in my opinion.
I've never had dragons long enough for them to die of old age (sold them after breeding years past), but I have had iguanas, many chameleons, and wild caught animals die of old age. I had a Veiled Chameleon die at seven years old (which is old for a chameleon) and I currently have two nine year old geckos.
In my experience, they all show their age similarly. Hard time hunting, more time sleeping, loss of appetite, lethargy, slow movement, and less active. They will bask and eat and look good (just older) until it starts going down hill. When it goes down hill it goes down hill fast.
I disagree with the above poster about older dragons using lower basking temps. I find it to be the opposite. The larger the mass of the animal, the longer it has to bask at the same temp to achieve desired core temps. Some people (not saying the above poster) don't have a real good understanding of behaviour and husbandry. It appears their animals don't like to bask at higher basking temps when they reach adult hood, but they fail to realize its the way they present the temps that the beardies don't like.
Its because of high watt bulbs, poor air movement, and poor surface to bask on. A lot of people use screen top enclosures for their dragons. Trying to heat a screen top enclosure is like trying to heat your home with no roof. It would take alot of heat. Same with the enclosure. They use a high watt bulb to achieve their desired temps. The hot bulb shoots heat down in to the enclosure and the hot air rises and is replaced by the cooler air in the room. The high watt bulbs make the air around the bulb hot! Beardies don't like hot air temps. I'm sure in the wild most beardies would be under ground when air temps get HOT. I use low watt bulbs and solid tops to achieve desired temps. All my sub adult and adult dragons use basking options (surface temps) as high as 130*. The air temps around the lights are not as high as the air temps around the high watt bulbs other keepers use. I achieve the basking temp by moving the basking spot closer to the bulb and using a surface that transfers heat well, but not fast.
I also agree with you on the "not feeding them too much" philosophy. Fat dragons that go off food (whether sick or forced) run a high risk of fatty liver. The kidneys are getting flooded with fat and can't process it all and it gets stored there. Its not from feeding too much protein. Its from feeding too much food all together.
All in all, congratulations on keeping a dragon for so long. Its really an accomplishment rarely seen on beardie forums. Keep up the good work.
TheVirus said:In my experience, they all show their age similarly. Hard time hunting, more time sleeping, loss of appetite, lethargy, slow movement, and less active. They will bask and eat and look good (just older) until it starts going down hill. When it goes down hill it goes down hill fast.
I disagree with the above poster about older dragons using lower basking temps. I find it to be the opposite. The larger the mass of the animal, the longer it has to bask at the same temp to achieve desired core temps.
thanks for the info on symptoms to watch for -- that's what i was looking for!! about basking, mine has two options, since there's a undercage heating pad under a portion of the terrarium. what i have noticed is that he spends more time pancaking there than he used to -- instead of on the climbing [fake] wood under the spot lamp. which may be because 1) he doesn't like climbing so much anymore or 2) he now prefers the heat on his belly to the heat coming from above. i have noticed that when we're on the patio on a hot sunny day, he starts gaping from the heat sooner than he used to.
athena
