Minimum Enclosure size

[Red Ink AUS]

Hi Guys,

Just one of those days where i ask Qs of the reptile community.

What do you think the minimum size for an enclosure is? (Does not have to be for BDs only any reptile as long as you say what it is)

Why do you think that is and where did you get that information?

Cheers,

 

[Pogie]

Well I can only comment on Beardies as Ive never been a reptile person and never thought I would be either LOL

I got the info from lots of care sheets I have read up on over the last 4 months. Everyone says a 20 Gallon is good for a baby, but not for long. For ONE adult it is a 40 Gallon Breeder. And havent really found out what the exact minimum is for 2 dragons, not that it would interrest me as its a bad idea to house 2 together anyways....and I dont intend to breed. If I could prevent P from EVER laying eggs I would do that too.

 

[crypticdragons]

Hi Guys,

Just one of those days where i ask Qs of the reptile community.

What do you think the minimum size for an enclosure is? (Does not have to be for BDs only any reptile as long as you say what it is)

Why do you think that is and where did you get that information?

Cheers,

For beardies I personally say no less than 6 SqFt of floor space for 1 (2ft x 3ft tank)
Snakes I believe the rule of thumb is 2/3rds the length of the snake (unless arboreal)

Monitors all depend on what type if you have a tree monitor 3ft wide by 3ft deep by 4-6ft tall would be ok
Non arboreal monitors need a 6-8 ft long by 3-4 ft deep by 2-3 ft tall tank (larger the monitor species the larger the tank.

 

[TheVirus]

Hey Red,


I guess your question makes me ask myself a multitude of questions. Like..... If an enclosure is an area that contains an artificial environment, what kind of environment am I trying to create? And, how much space is needed to create that environment?

Also, if a person has a 10'x5'x5' enclosure for a beardie, and some other person has a 4'x2'x2', is the 10'x5'x5' better simply because its bigger?

 

[Red Ink AUS]

Hey Red,

I guess your question makes me ask myself a multitude of questions. Like..... If an enclosure is an area that contains an artificial environment, what kind of environment am I trying to create? And, how much space is needed to create that environment?

Also, if a person has a 10'x5'x5' enclosure for a beardie, and some other person has a 4'x2'x2', is the 10'x5'x5' better simply because its bigger?

That's exactly what i want people to start thinking about . Ask their own Qs abou husbandry.

Why are we all just building the standard set up?

Is it cause that's what we have been told?

Is it cause it works for others so it must work?

Why is it the minimum?

Does minimum mean space needed to move around or does it mean the easiest size to control?

Does minimum take into account behaviour?

 

[Craiger]

For starters, I think one always has to consider how much extra room they have for an enclosure. Then after that, temp control as well as providing enough room for beardie to have as happy a life as possible in captivity.

For me, I like to be creative. My first enclosure didn't take up any space whatsoever in the room it's visible in. It's an "in-the-wall" enclosure. Once I decided where I wanted to put it, I did some homework on what the minimum size needed to be. And not ever being happy with just providing the minimum, I decided what size I could offer while still keeping it small enough to control temps. My decision was to provide an enclosure that was 6 feet x 2 feet x 2 feet....or 12 square feet. This is enough room for Frodo to run around and not feel like he's running in circles. It also gives him a nice temp gradient from one end to the other....while not being too drastic.

My second enclosure was only slightly smaller at 5 feet x 2 feet x 2 feet. It's a stand alone enclosure, but makes a wonderful display with a canopy and lots of storage in the stand.

My third enclosure was for my iguana. Again, having done lots of homework, I knew the minimum size, but didn't want to just settle for minimum. It's not the biggest enclosure in the world, but it is 32 square feet and 7-1/2 feet tall. Gandalf is right around 5 feet long, now, and has LOTS of room to climb, bask, jump and run if he wants. And...he feels right at home with all the greenery I've provided.

Personally, as Virus mentioned, I think the only way the 10x5x5 could be better than the 4x2x2 is if all things were equal except for size. If all things were equal, I'd much rather have my beardie experience life in a 10x5x5.

 

[TheVirus]

Why are we all just building the standard set up?

Is it cause that's what we have been told?

Is it cause it works for others so it must work?

Its because we've been told to. Beardeds are "pet" lizards. Therefore, you get a lot of people who never experienced reptile behaviour. Someone said, "I did it this way and my dragon didn't die". So the next person does it, and the next, and so on. Suddenly it becomes gospel.

Does minimum take into account behaviour?

No Caresheet husbandry doesn't take into account behaviour. It doesn't matter how big the enclosure is.

I love your questions. Your asking "why". Nobody asks "why". We just do. Truth is, there is a reason (or why) to every single aspect of everything we do with these lizards. Every aspect of husbandry that I apply to my lizards is based on behaviour. I chose these methods based on the question "why".

Alright. I have more questions Why does an animal that comes from a semi-arid environment, and eats fruits and veggies, have to be bathed weekly? Why do they get stuck sheds? Why do they get impacted?

 

[Pogie]

Alright. I have more questions Smiley Why does an animal that comes from a semi-arid environment, and eats fruits and veggies, have to be bathed weekly? Why do they get stuck sheds? Why do they get impacted? Smiley

Oooooh, this one is gonna be good, cos Ive asked myself some of these Q's as well.

Ill give it a go (Just my personal thoughts/opinions though)

I think the bathing (or misting for those that do) simulates morning dew. I mean they have to get moisture from somewhere in the dessert.

The stuck sheds I can only guess it may be because in the desert the environment has lots of rough textures (sand/rocks etc) and in the captive enclosures there aren't always enough

The impacted Q, I have NO IDEA. cant figure it out. I mean they should get less impacted in captivity I think 'cos we can watch what they eat and how they live (substrates) but in nature . . . who tells them eating sand is bad, keep your food smaller than the space between the eyes and all that.

Cant wait for the others inputs

 

[TheVirus]

Hey Pogie,

Great post!! You've thought about these things too. Thats great! So many people don't.

I mean they have to get moisture from somewhere in the dessert.

When people re-create what they feel is a beardies natural environment, they end up creating the harsh, desiccate, environment that the beardies are trying to survive in. What is never taken in to account, is the micro-environments that all reptiles from those type of environments seek out in order to survive.

The stuck sheds I can only guess it may be because in the desert the environment has lots of rough textures (sand/rocks etc) and in the captive enclosures there aren't always enough

Its because we never take in to account the micro-climates. Its so dry in our enclosures, they can't shed properly.

I mean they should get less impacted in captivity

They shouldn't get impacted at all. It doesn't matter if they are on a loose substrate, or the prey is bigger than the space between the eyes. Again, no micro-climates. Our enclosures are too harsh for even an animal designed to live in harsh environments

 

[beardielover17]

Ok! *cracks knuckles*

Regardless of how you keep your herp, be it beardie, snake or monitor I feel a minimum enclosure should be at the very least as wide as the animal and about double to triple the length. The height will vary on terrestrial or arboreal animals. In the case of terrestrials it should be roughly a little higher than they are long especially if you provide elevated basking spots. For arboreal herps those numbers should double for height. I personally try to add even more space for my animals for several reasons. More room to move about and not be so "lazy" since the enclosure isn't this tiny little box. It leaves room to create different areas of different temperatures, humidity and even terrain which I believe can stimulate them mentally (especially if changed around every so often.

Q:Why are we all just building the standard set up?
A: People don't have the time to deal with "advanced" setups due to busy lifestyles and the fear of all the "risks" involved doing so that many forums say is the case.

Q:Is it cause that's what we have been told?
A: Oops, kinda answered this one with the last question. I believe it's partially due to what we are told. Mainly by forums, pet stores, etc etc. I admit I started out with a standard setup but after more and more reading, studying the animal's behaviors and listening to them I made my adjustments according to what the lizards wanted. (I must sound like Dr. Dolittle after that one lol)

Q:Is it cause it works for others so it must work?
A:Once again in a way yes. People take comfort in knowing this has worked for the vast majority of people and will do the same and try to imitate what others have. It's kinda like cheating on the smart girl in math class. She seems to always know the answers so if you copy, you pass but there is always that chance you got a different version of the test this time.

Q:Why is it the minimum?
A:I think it is the minimum based on the average size of the lizard. Giving just enough room to turn around in comfort, enough room to climb at a short distance and enough room to pace back and forth rather in circles if the enclosure was the same length as the lizard.

Qoes minimum mean space needed to move around or does it mean the easiest size to control?
A:For me, it is a combination of both I would guess. I love being able to provide my reptiles with more room than recommended for minimum partially just for the space alone that they have to enjoy. On the other hand, it is easier to control. Having a larger enclosure allows for a gradient of temperatures, humidity, terrain and other things that I think would benefit the animal by providing mental stimuli rather than seeing the same thing over and over. Larger enclosures allow you to change what ever you want and to allow enough space where the animal can actually experience a good portion of every different area.

Qoes minimum take into account behaviour?
A:Not at all. I personally think an animal would need an infinite amount of room in order for them to REALLY display more behavior. With limited room they are only capable of doing so much.

Q:Why does an animal that comes from a semi-arid environment, and eats fruits and veggies, have to be bathed weekly?
A:I personally don't buy the bathing for a main source of hydration thing. I really only soak for exercise since mine seem to enjoy them.

Q:Why do they get stuck sheds?
A:I think it is because people think that they need NO humidity. Many people think that they are like Uromastyx in a way in terms of not needing humidity. With no humidity or not enough, sheds are more difficult to come off. This is a huge issue with Frilled Dragons because most people don't know how to get proper humidity and the animal isn't able to shed properly.

Q:Why do they get impacted?
A:I think it partially has to do with having weaker animals from years and years of inbreeding which compromises the animal's health. An animal in poor health is more likely to get impacted where a healthier one does not (assuming they are both under proper and identical conditions). Also, I think a lot has to do with people's lack of understanding their care. People buy a reptile go to forums for a caresheet to follow and abide by it word for word never checking to see if that is actually working for their animal. They assume if it worked for others it must work for them. Every individual dragon is different in terms of things they prefer.

*wipes sweat off brow* My work is done here....temporarily

 

[Red Ink AUS]

Personally from behavioural observations of dragons, both captive and wild the minimum enclosure height in my opinion should be 3 foot and not 18 inches. Height never seems to be considered as a main factor. It is considred for lighting and thermal gradient purposes but not behaviour.