I inadvertantly did a test

[crypticdragons]

A lot of people tend to argue on forums over if size is more geared towards care or genetics. now granted a dragon with poor husbandry can and most likely will be stunted. But if you take two dragons from very different bloodlines and gave them the exact same care (lighting, food, supplements, Etc) what would the difference be. Well as most of you know i bred Dr. Evil (my gg tiger) to bella (patternless blood). Both animals are on the large end of the spectrum for american beardies. Dr. evil being at just over 22 inches and bella being 19.5 with a tail nip. Their babies grew very fast. By 2 months the citrus tiger male i still have was 10.5 inches and 55-60 grams (just hit 3 months 12.5 inches 90 grams). now you take the baby i got from Koral. I got her having already been bred by a friend of mine. The sire was a quad het italian leather back and she is a cawley red Ogg (so both of the babies had German Giant in their lineage). The baby from this pairing grew at a noticably different rate. He is currently 2 months old(well will be tomorrow) and is significantly smaller than the citrus tiger was at 2 months. 7-7.5 inches and about 25 grams in weight. These dragons were both kept under MVB lighting, fed nymph dubia, turks, crickets, small supers, and collards. both were given calcium and vitamin supplements and both are 100% healthy. The bloodline apparently dictated their growth. I just found it interesting specifically because of how many arguments i have seen in the past over growth and how its due to the owner that dragons grow or dont grow at a certain rate.

 

[zebraflavencs]

How long did you "run' this test, Bri ? It will be interesting to see where this puts you and the babies in 3 more months
janie

 

[crypticdragons]

Currently i would have to say 2 months as it started with Pita. i have been watching him constantly cause i was worried at his growth rate (cause im used to the offspring of dr. evil whom apparently has a very dominant genetic trait of size). Than it just clicked last night. that pita is actually the right size for his age. its Dr. Evils offspring that are way bigger than most at that age lol.

 

[beardielover17]

interesting find brian

 

[Twobeardieguy]

Very interesting!!!

 

[Red Ink AUS]

Few question though, what's the study on how long bearded dragons hold their "genetic" traits. As in most people would consider like say a deep red in their colouring or them being a hypo a genetic trait.

If i take a Chris Allen red or a Cawley red and breed it with most drab normal looking dragon i can find and repeated this mating again with the next gen i.e the Red cross with another normal. How long do you guys think it would take for me to wipe out the red trait or hypo or any other genetic trait for that matter?

I see the term GG put in a lot of the crosses in the breedings over there, is that a marketing thing? (Not saying that yours are'nt true GG Bri) In most instances that GG could be 2 or 3 gens back but people tend to keep it in their labelling. How much do you guys now of how many "true GG" bloodlines are left over there. I have been around more than a few american based forums for a while now and i am yet to see a thread with the title "I just imported a GG from Germany".

So ultimately when is a GG no longer a GG?

 

[crypticdragons]

I only use the German Giant on my male Dr. evil because the breeder i got him from had a imported male that was the grandfather of Dr. Evil. To my understanding it takes 5 generations to "work" a trait out of a line. essentially i kept the GG name with Evil because of his size and his ability to pass down the trait for fast growth. He hit 22 inches within 7 months and his offspring are on the same path.

this wasnt a dedicated scientific test by the way. it was just something i happened upon. Pita is the first baby i have had that was not from Dr. Evil (i purchased all 3 of my females as adults). And i found it interesting to watch the extreme difference in growth.

 

[TheWolfmanTom]

Now lets take this a step deeper into the gene pool. Now your baby from coral is smaller than doc evils brood. I have to think that genetics plays a huge part in this. How far back is Korals GG bloodline removed from the original line? What other bloodlines are in the mix. For all we know there could be a runt in the family tree who's genetic stamp may have just been payed. I love genetics. Its like making a Gumbo from mystrey ingredients. You dont know what the end result will be.

 

[crypticdragons]

Well as much as i like Dan he is one of those breeders that puts everything from a dragons family tree into its morph. Neither of Korals parents were giant. I would venture to say that the "GG" line is far removed in Koral. Not to mention that she was bred to a small males. The quad het italian leather is only 17"s long. so genetically it is a smaller line. Thats why i find it amazing how obvious the size is being effected by the genetics. it sort of debunks the idea a few on .org go by of "overfeeding" is what makes them grow so large (like power feeding). Cause as was stated in the beginning everything has been identical for these two.

 

[TheWolfmanTom]

from what I understand of power feeding that is something that makes snakes grow faster. Even some of my fastest growers slow down on the growth rate from time to time. Thats why I find genetics so interesting. I have 2 from my 07/27/09 clutch that just arent growing. They eat , ect ect. But they are half the size of their sibblings.

 

[crypticdragons]

yeah i was comparing it to power feeding in snakes. there are some people that are ill-informed that seem to think you can power feed dragons. which is one of the things i have kind of debunked (at least in my mind)