Hepatic lipidosis (Fatty Liver Disease) Questions

[crypticdragons]

well as an adult dragons intake a much lower amount of proteins/fats/calcium etc due to a lowered neccessity for it. by averaging out specifically the numbers on proteins and fats i would assume that the second diet would be the "healthier" route for an adult. But it is quite possible im wrong lol.

 

[ladyknite]

by averaging out specifically the numbers on proteins and fats i would assume that the second diet would be the "healthier" route for an adult

if you had done that correctly, you would have noted that the second diet consisted of 49.9 % crude protein from insects in the diet and only 2.3% from vegetables. Quite the opposite from the 80/20 switch. That's more of a diet for a 18 month old.

You're forgetting that crude proteins and fats are soluable against water and fiber. it's not strictly any one column, but a combination of all.

Understand why I say the old ways have been forgotten now?

 

[crypticdragons]

i was just crunching numbers i wasnt even paying attention to where they were coming from. lol
i messed that one up.

 

[ladyknite]

*taps foot*
pay attention Brian

 

[Twobeardieguy]

Very nice!!!

 

[renich]

Geeze, he admits his lack of attention. It's one thing to be in class and doodling, but admitting online that you lost your train of thought. tsk, tsk...lol...

 

[ladyknite]

rofl Renee.

 

[crypticdragons]

yeah so paying attention to one thing has never been my strong suit. but i can multi task like a mofo so

 

[zebraflavencs]

Once I added up all the numbers,... for a 3 year old I would have chosen #1. #2 is definitely fairly close to what I am feeding Annebelle right now...
Janie

 

[DragonMom]

:-X

 

[ladyknite]

The high fat content in the diet is important, but you if know how to count it out, you even that over a very short peroid of time and make a more healthy diet.

Let me see if i can give you a visual.

As a child, you could eat junk food, starchy foods and drink soda with little to no weight gain. Why do you think this was? Much was due to your level of exercise, much to your metabolism. As you got older, those same foods caused you to gain weight and maintain that weight without easily shedding it.

With age, the natural processes of the body slow down.

I've heard vets for many years say that baby dragons cannot take too much proteins or crude fats and haven't found anything to deter me from that belief. Therefore, the issue logically arises upon adulthood when the bodily functions slow and the animals doesn't require the level of proteins (containing crude fats) as it once did. Without knowingly doing it, the owner provides too much crude fat in the diet for the age limit. It's now considered normal to have a 600 gram dragon that's not a true GG. Those just aren't found in the wild, and wasn't a "goal" years ago. Yet today, we see so much more fatty liver issues.

 

[DragonMom]

:-X

 

[beardielover17]

ok im glad u pointed all of this out gina...seems like im doing the right thing for magellan then...i offer staples that are "green" but i also offer alot of the "black" and even a "blue" here and there...jelly's staple bugs tend to be silks and turks and only so often...i knew that the collards and quite a few others were higher in protein and calcium so i limit them even tho they are considered staples...for a while i thought i was "doing it wrong" apparently i wasnt after i just added it up

 

[ladyknite]

Does an adult dragons diet need to be completely switched to that 80/20 ratio?

A accurate 80/20 diet can be hard to achieve when you incorporate a variety, you might be off a point or two in the end to one direction or another. But essentially that's the goal for your adults. The baby's levels are boosted by the amounts of proteins and fats in those proteins, not by his intake of veggies really. It's important to offer them correctly, and hope he does utilize them but the requirement for them in his diet compared to his bugs is really quite low. For instance, if he eats collards, mustard, and squash mix one day per week, even at just a bite or two, he's serviced his need per ratio.

I knew that a younger dragon (juvenile) could tolerate more fat, but, was led to believe that a more fatty diet while young could eventually lead to an obese adult dragon, and then to fatty-liver

Can you give me an example of a diet high in fat for a juvenile?

 

[TheVirus]

Hey Brian,

I just wanted to chime in. I live "dumbed down" so we should understand each other on this one Well, my opinion anyway

Ultimately, fatty liver is husbandry related. Feeding is part of husbandry. Conditions play a major role too. Primarily temps.

Lets say dragon "A" is offered higher basking temps than dragon "B". Dragon "A" needs "X" amount of food to maintain its weight. If dragon "B" was to eat the same amount of food, it would gain weight. Dragon "B" would be at higher risk of fatty liver based on conditions. Temps=metabolism.

I remember years ago there was a big fatty liver debate with Savannah Monitors. Most keepers feed their savs rodents. Many savs developed fatty liver. Some people started changing their diet to insects. Others simply upped the basking temps. Both sides had the same results. No fatty liver. In my opinion, the higher basking temps were the real solution. Changing their diet was more of a bandaid solution. It wasn't that savs were incapable of eating rodents, it was that they were incapable of eating rodents in those conditions. Care sheet beardie husbandry is based on this "bandaid solution" system. Everything that is applied, is to cover up something that is lacking. Whats lacking is never fixed.

To sum it up even easier, if your dragon is fat, feed smaller portions. As you can see from being on forums, dragons get fat eating nothing but greens. I have a 22" female who weighs around 450 grams. She looks good.

Variety benefits mental health more than anything. Mental health is very important too. In the right conditions, dragons can digest and utilize anything. Crayfish, snails, shrimp, prawn, fish, rodents, insects, birds, fertilized eggs.... When broken down nutritionally these all make great treats. Just don't feed them hot dogs, hamburgers, and potato chips

So offer them high basking temps, feed primarily greens, and you can give them supers, moles, baby finches, or Canadian Cockroaches Best of all, fatty liver will be that thing you read about on beardie forums

 

[Red Ink AUS]

I'm with you on this one Tim, i keep all my herps "lean" and on high temps. I actually only feed my reptiles three times a week one of which is the protein/feeder diet. Not all people would agree with this but i try and keep my husbandry as natural as possible even down to the feed schedule. I have taken out the predation factor for them by living in captivity but that is all i take out from their natural setting. They don't feed daily in the wild so there is no need for them to feed daily in captivity (my opinion anyway). With the dragons i have always fed them a pinkie once a month to replicate what the would eat naturally (pinkies are a substitute for the vertebrates they would eat naturally). This is a practice i often get flamed on in forums but it works for me and the rest of my close circle of friends. I also feed locust during locust season here down under.

FLD is the manifestation of a number of factors and it can't be put down to just the one. Even if people cut down the fat content the dragons liver still needs to be able to process what fat it gets properly or the result will be the same. Diet does contribute to it I'm not saying that it doesn't, but in my opinion you have to give the dragon time to process all that it has eaten through its system so there is no deposit of excess fat anywhere that's the reason for my feed schedule. If you keep feeding it than all it does is store the excess fat, protein and other minerals even calcium which in time could lead to health problems like FLD and even hyper calcemia or an over weight dragon. Reptiles are not built to process food naturally at the rate that captive husbandry provides for them, we can change their environment but we can't change millions of years of evolutionary adaptation hard wired into their physiology in a 40 gallon enclosure.

MY two cents.

 

[crypticdragons]

THanks for the replies. That is essentially what i thought. That it is a lack of proper care that ends up being the common denominator for ailments such as FLD. Francis i would love to see a more detailed outline of how you feed your dragons. I always enjoy input from people that have tailored their care from the natural habitat they see on a regular basis.

 

[DragonMom]

:-X

 

[ladyknite]

In the right conditions, dragons can digest and utilize anything.

true. Which is the problem where diet is concerned IMO. The ability to mimic the set up of others, and the lack of one's own forethought create a big problem.

FLD is the manifestation of a number of factors and it can't be put down to just the one. Even if people cut down the fat content the dragons liver still needs to be able to process what fat it gets properly or the result will be the same

I do agree Francis. My feeding regiment isn't what is considered "Par for the norm" on forums as well. I've observed many with FLD, from all different causes and never came across one with the exact same type of conditions as the other.

As for husbandry....the lack of decent temperatures slow metabolism. As metabolism slows, all deposits are stored, not expelled in excess. Thus enabling FLD.............right guys?

 

[DragonMom]

:-X