Hepatic lipidosis (Fatty Liver Disease) Questions

[crypticdragons]

So i got into a "heated discussion" with a mod on a forum that i care not mention on feeders and what not. She proceeded to tell me that she had a rescue that the only reason it was sick and had fatty liver disease and was almost dead was due to eating a slighty higher fat ratio (supers) and that was it. Now this erked me cause i know its not true (at least not entirely) so i started searching. And found some info. But would like more opinions if available.

So from what i have found animals that cannot properly digest their food, are lethargic, and obese, when they or you decide to fast them they mobilize their fat reserves which soaks liver with fat and can kill them sometimes quickly. From what i have read this occurs from low/inadequate basking temps. Am i on the right track here or am i way off base and just finding the answer that i want to find lol.

 

[ladyknite]

ummmmmm it sounds like your suggesting that low temps cause FLD?

cannot properly digest their food, are lethargic, and obese, when they or you decide to fast

these are symptoms or manifestations of FLD, not causes

I'm so confused. lol sorry Brian

 

[crypticdragons]

Sorry i may have not typed it out appropriately. From what i read lethargy and obesity are the "leading accepted" causes of Fatty Liver Disease which from what i have read (and from experience) lethargic behaviors and obesity are normally caused from inadequate temps and inadequate housing. As i said this is what i read. i dont know thats why im asking 8)

 

[crypticdragons]

what im wanting to find out is if this is caused primarily from feeding a higher fat diet or if that is only a minor part of what can make this fatal and am hoping for a explanation that makes the answer clearer as i currently know less than i did when i started lol.

 

[ladyknite]

ahhh ok. i think i understand.
Lemme see if i can explain and not wrap my fingers around my brain on an inside out level.

When reptiles (we'll speak specifically of dragons) consume foods with high fat concentrates, that food is broken down in much the same way our body breaks down food for nutritional value. CA values, vitamins, proteins, minerals, fats, water, etc are all essential in diet. Many of these things are stored to be used later as needed and the waste is expelled.
But take into account, for one reason or another (stress, illness, parasites, defect or improper care and feeding) that the natural breakdown ceases to occur. CA is displaced, not absorbed, vitamins are vacated, fibers are isolated and the contents used to absorb the fat portion of the diet is at max. The liver becomes swollen and strains to function. This..............however, is undetectable for a severely long time and generally too late to correct once it has progressed past a certian point.
As desperation sets in, the dragon takes on a "malnourished" and metabolic type appearance. Most people see this as "time to feed the poor thing", and all they're really doing is killing it. this isn't to be confused with actual malnutrition The feeding increases the strain on the liver until it stops working, when liver function stops, death is imminent.
Feeding has alot to do with how much fat is in the diet. There are ways around, over and thru most of those items. People just don't take time to figure them out.
I am aware of the dragon and person you speak of. He did die of FLD caused by feeding. But to know if that feeding was imposed once the issues began, or prior to that, I don't.

 

[crypticdragons]

So in short (cause i have been with Marines too long and like stuff Barney style) i high fat diet is not the main cause of Fatty Liver Disease. In fact there has to be a number of deficiencies either with the animal or its husbandry on top of this?

 

[ladyknite]

understand that FLD in dragons is different than any human deficiency or illness. It does things to their body that it doesn't do to yours.

in relation to the content of fat in the diet, it essentially is the main cause of FLD, indirectly. People no longer know how to count and balance. They look at a color coded chart and think they got it all figured out and never take the time to know exactly what those numbers mean, how they relate, and how they work toward or against the issue. They think by staying "only in the green" they're safe. And, as far as greens go, they are (note that greens also have a certian amount of proteins and fats). But they don't feed only greens do they? The other foods they feed have properties also. Ask someone to count it out for you. Weigh the diet. See what you get. You'll find that most feed foods high in calcium. yet only so much calcium can be stored in the body at one time. They'll feed bugs of course. Weigh that in there.

Time to think.

 

[crypticdragons]

So you are saying it is in relation to levels of each nutrient within a feeder vs. size/weight of the animal you are feeding (this is basically the way a healthy diet is determined for a adult human like i said im trying to dumb it down lol). And then you add in the supplements added to these feeders (ie calcium and multivits) as well as what nutrients they are receiving from the diet you are feeding the insects? Oiy my heads starting to hurt lol.

 

[ladyknite]

it all takes part.

 

[crypticdragons]

gina i love you but you really are annoying lol. i guess i have a project to work on while im at my second job tonight lol

 

[renich]

Jumping in this kind of late, but I remember our herp vet telling us that a fatty diet can lead to organ issues...

 

[crypticdragons]

Renee

thats what im trying to decipher. i know that it can but is it the cause or just a conduit for organ failure. Is the cause truly a fatty diet or is it a large number of things any of which when coupled with a inadequate diet that causes the issues. I am pretty certain i am in over my head on this question as it flows into areas outside my current comprehension and though i would like to learn it is very difficult for me (never been very profficient with technical knowledge common sense sh!t i can do anytime but get technical and my eyes can glass over lol). I am going to try and just see where i lead myself.

Brian

 

[ladyknite]

ok Brian
I'll "dumb it up" as you asked.
think of it this way. Is it the fact that it's cold outside, the weather is nasty and you don't like to go run in it that contributes to heart problems..............or is that you stuff your face with cheeseburgers, pizza, tacos and pasta 8 days a week? Is it the fact that you don't exercise that causes the problem, or is the diet you choose the issue?

with human anatomy, it is the imbalance of several things that cause arterial disease (not fatty liver), but just as an example. With FLD, it is the imbalance of several that make it possible, but not it's cause.

 

[crypticdragons]

Though i think i may have just gotten yelled at :'( (lol) that was what i was wanting to find out. still gotta sit down and see if i cant clue myself into the actual "science" behind it or what not. But in short that was what i figured i just didnt know for certain. Thanks Gina if there was a huggy face id put it up right now but since there isnt you will have to deal with a smile ;D

 

[ladyknite]

it's ok dude.

do this. it'll help. Pick a diet from the 2 below. You're feeding an adult approximately 3 years old.

CA Proteins % FAT % Fiber % Water %
Prickly Pear 2.3:1 .7 .5 3.6 88
Collards 14.5:1 2.5 .4 3.6 91
Endives 1.9:1 1.3 .2 3.1 94
Red Leaf Lettuce 1:1.2 1.3 .2 .9 96
Green Beans (raw) 1:1 1.8 1 3.4 90
Crickets 20/wk 1:12 21.3 6.0 3.2 70
Hornworms10/wk 1.3 9 3 85


CA Proteins % FAT % Fiber % Water %
Dandilion 2.8:1 2.7 .7 3.5 86
Collards 14.5:1 2.5 .4 3.6 91
Mustard Greens 2.4:1 2.7 .2 3.3 91
Butternut Sq. 1.5:1 1 .1 11.7 86
Dubia Roach (20/wk) 36 7 61
Silkworms 10/wk 1:2.4 63.8 76

 

[ladyknite]

why does nothing copy and paste like it does on word???????????? humf!!!!

 

[crypticdragons]

Lol ok so its messed up. good i thought i had blown a blood vessel in my brain or something for a second lol

 

[ladyknite]

anyways, you can figure it out. which diet would you choose?

 

[crypticdragons]

well my impulse answer from looking at the feeders would be diet number 2
but :-\
upon crunching numbers diet one has a ration of 1% to 3% (fat to protein) while diet 2 is almost 50/50 with a lil overage on the fats side?

 

[ladyknite]

interesting. And what are your main bearing factors considering that ADULT diet?