Beardies far below average length for size. Worry?

[EmyMargaret]

Hi! Thank you for taking the time to read this.

I got two baby Beardies from the same clutch in November 2012. Donatello and Rosina. They are healthy and have been growing at a steady rate. They eat a lot and are really good about drinking out of their water dish. They seem very happy and love it when I take them out. They have bonded nicely and often show that they trust me.

Being curious, I recently looked online for the average growth rate of a Beardie and became concerned about mine. When I got them in Nov, I was told that they were 6 months old. They were both around 5 in. long and I have kept a close record since. Assuming that the breeder was telling the truth about their age, Donny and Ro are now almost a year old and just over 9 in. From what I found online, this is the average size for a 3 month old. Should I be concerned? They've both been growing at a steady rate and shedding regularly. I wasn't concerned until I compared them to other Beardies.

Thankful for any help I can get. Thanks!
EmyMargaret

 

[Germ]

Here is some info that you really need to seriously consider, as it could very well be the source of the size issues that you are describing, along with many others.

Is Bearded Dragon Co-habitation a good plan?

It sounds by the size that you have mentioned that your dragons were closer to 5-6 weeks old, rather than 6 months old when you acquired them. Even if this is the case, your BDs would now be approximately 8-9 months old & both only being 9" now, is really small. Yes I would be concerned. First you need to answer a question, are these measurements taken from Nose to Vent or Nose to Tip of Tail (This is the normal method of measurement used.). Your answer to this would make all the difference in the world, as far as age & size goes.

Regardless, you have these BDs, siblings, by the names I'm going to guess Male & Female (brother & sister) in a position to breed soon. Males mature sexually earlier than females, there is an extremely high possibility that you have them in a situation to cause the female to become Gravid long before it's body is ready & that it is anywhere near big enough to produce & safely lay eggs. This can be very difficult, dangerous & possibly deadly for a young, small female.

Please post pics of your set up, showing your lighting orientation in comparison to the rest of the enclosure & of your BDs. Please also include as much accurate info as you can about your husbandry, such as Substrate, temps (both basking & cool side), the type of thermometers used to take them & where exactly the temp measurements are taken from, size of the enclosure, type\brand\strength of UVB bulb, diet, Day\Night schedule, do you use a night light, etc, etc. As much accurate info as you can provide, to give the members of the community a better understanding of the situation, so they can provide more accurate, helpful advice & aid in pinpointing current or potential issues.

Some other info that you also really need to consider, seeing that you have them in a position to breed, on top of the issues of them being too young & siblings to boot.

Thinking of Breeding???

TO BREED OR NOT TO BREED: A REALITY CHECK​

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LAY BIN SETUP​

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EGG LAYING & THE THINGS THAT YOU WILL NEED​

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Please separate your BDs asap, before you have some\more??? serious health issues arising. ​

A few more good links that may help ...​

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Basic BD Care Sheet - A Place To Start​

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Bearded Dragon --- Exclusive Care Info Library​

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Beautiful Dragons Nutrition Chart​

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How to sex a Bearded Dragon​

How To Sex A Bearded Dragon​

Good Luck​

 

[Mungi's Buddha]

Welcome to the BDF Community Please do take heed of the info Germ has already provided you especially as pertaining to housing dragons together. It is a huge mistake that albeit well known and documented that these are territorial, dominance based creatures, many people chose to make the mistake in thinking their dragons are different or that they will be able to stop them quick enough should something happen.
Two facts are true. There will be an incident sooner or later which will end badly for one or both of your dragons and no matter how attentive a keeper you are you cannot be there 24/7.
For your dragons safety and well being and also your peace of mind do get them separated.
Enjoy!

 

[EmyMargaret]

Thank you for all your help. I hope I can get this sorted out in the near future.

I measure them from nose to tail. My terrarium is 20 L x 10 D x 12 H. I have 1 heat lamp and 1 UVB lamp. The UVB is a Exo Terra Repti Glo 10.0 bulb. I don't use a heating pad because I was told they are too hot for babies. The basking side (located on the right side of the terrarium) ranges from 80-90 degrees F, while the cooler side (left side) ranges from 70-80 degrees F. I do not use any sort of light or heat at night. My thermometer is digital and is produced by Zoo Med ($10) Pic of terrarium posted below.

I have never considered breeding Donatello and Rosina. I originally wanted only 1 Beardie, but my parents got me 2 for Christmas. They were told by the breeder that the two they got for me were male and female, though I know that you can't tell for sure until they mature. Being as they are from the same clutch, I think it would be a bad to breed them. I don't want to cause them any harm by leaving them together and accidents happening; breeding or otherwise. I want to do what's right and in the best interest of the lizards.

I am heeding your warnings and will be separating Donatello and Ro before the week is out. I really had no idea. I knew that if you had two males they would fight, and if I didn't want eggs I needed to separate them eventually, but that was all.

 

[EmyMargaret]

Oh! And for a substrate I use crushed walnuts. The breeder suggested it as being the best for babies.

 

[Mungi's Buddha]

Oh! And for a substrate I use crushed walnuts. The breeder suggested it as being the best for babies.

There are many things in your current setup that are incorrect for a bearded dragon enclosure as well as some that are placing your dragons at serious risk. This is besides the issue of them being housed together which has already been touched on.
I am going to briefly go through these but will ask that you please go to the link that Germ provided to you and familiarize yourself with the Basic Bearded Dragon Care Sheet.
1) At current you are housing both dragons in a standard 10 gallon tank.
The minimum required size for a baby or juvenile bearded dragon is a 20 gallon Long tank which is 30" L x 12" D x 12" high.
For an adult bearded dragon the minimum size enclosure required is a 40 gallon Breeder tank which is 36" L x 18" D x 16" H.
These are the minimums for each dragon. At this point in order to start getting them setup properly you will probably want to go ahead and purchased 2 of the 40 gallon Breeder tanks because it will not be long before they will need them and it will save you money.
Just a side note but keeping territorial creatures housed together in an enclosure that is not even the minimum size needed for a single dragon drastically increases the likelyhood that they will battle for dominance of the available territory so it is even more important that you do get them in properly sized separate enclosures as quickly as possible.
Temperatures and temperature gradient are extremely important to bearded dragons and have to be properly set up and maintained because without these they can not digest food right and can not utilize the nutrients therefore can not grow and thrive.
In your current setup there is not enough room to setup these temps and the proper gradient needed.
The basking spot temperature for baby and juvenile dragons needs to be 110 degrees F and the cool side temp needs to be between 80-85 degrees F. Those are the daytime temps needed just to maintain normal bodily function.
For adults the cool side is the same but the basking spot needs to be 105 degrees F.
The thermometer you are using is fine but is not positioned right and you will need 2 of those thermometers for each new enclosure. One of the probes has to be placed directly on the basking spot. Unless it is attached directly then you will not be getting a correct basking spot temp reading. The second thermometer probe needs to be placed in the coolest part of the enclosure. This will give you a cool side temp reading.
The crushed walnut hulls that you are using for substrate is probably one of the worst choices for substrate as their is a high risk of your dragons becoming impacted by ingesting it.
Particulate substrates of any kind are NOT a safe choice for any dragon that is not yet 10+ inches from snout tip to tail tip.
When they are of proper size and in properly sized enclosures the only proven safe particulate substrate choice is washed, sifted, children's playsand.
Until then there are many suitable substrate choices some of which include paper towels, non stick vinyl tile, or even slate or granite tiles.
Your dragons do not require nor is a water dish a thing that should be in the enclosure. Most dragons don't drink from standing water. They get the hydration they need from the greens you feed them and from the live prey as well as from the weekly 20-25 minute soak in 105 degree F water that you give them during which time they will absorb water thru their skin and will also draw in water thru their vent.
These are dry climate desert dwelling creatures and are adapted to that type of environment. The water dish will also raise the humidity inside the enclosure which is so not a desirable thing.
.....continued in next post

 

[Mungi's Buddha]

When you set up the new enclosures you will want to have both the basking light and UV light set up on one side and positioned so that both are shining directly down on the basking slot. This will assist you in getting the proper hot side and cool side they need.
The two domes you have are really not the most efficient or cost effective way to accomplish this. The dome for the basking bulb is fine but you would be better off buying the tube type UV bulbs instead of the coils. I recommend and use 18" Reptisun or ReptiGlo 10.0 bulbs and use inexpensive under the counter mount florescent fixtures for them. These fixtures can be found at Walmart for under 10 dollars. By using the tube UV lights you can mount the fixture under the screen by hot gluing it to the back and side glass of the tank about 1" below the top rim.
This will allow you to line up your UV and basking bulb easier so that they shine directly down on the basking spot. Also by mounting the UV that way your dragon will get full unfiltered UV light which is better for him and you will only have to replace the bulb once per year instead of twice per year with an above screen mounted UV light. That saves you money.
Another important note is that the basking and UV lighting should really be set at one end of the enclosure to allow the dragon a way to get away from the UV when he wants.
Keep to the no lights or supplemental heat in the enclosures unless the ambient temp in your home drops below 65 degrees F. Your dragons will appreciate the cool down period and sleep better.
UTH under tank heaters and hot rocks can never be used because dragons do not have heat sensors in there belly and in the case of hot rocks can be seriously burned.
As far as furnishings for a dragon enclosure the best thing is go Keep Things Simple. The only thing that they require is a basking spot perch at the right temperature, a single dish for their greens and perhaps a large stone which will naturally help keep their nails trim.
A hide is fine but really note needed most times as most dragons don't really use them very much except during brumation. If you do use a hide it should be placed on the cool side of the enclosure. If placed on the hot side they can become like ovens with the temp getting much higher inside.
What I have covered here are just the basics of proper setup. As I mentioned before you really need to read through the basic care sheet and exclusive care guide links that Germ provided for you. After you have done that should you have any other questions don't hesitate to shout out. The folks here at the BDF are here to help make sure you get all the right info you need to properly care for your dragons.
The first step is getting them separated and in correct set up enclosures. Their current housing along with being unsafe and unhealthy is also a major reason for their stunted growth. If you get them set up right they should however catch back up on that growth too.
Hope this helps and I look forward to updates as to how they are doing.

 

[Mungi's Buddha]

One last thing to be aware of. When you move them to their new enclosures it will be just as if you are bringing them home for the first time. They will need a 10 + day acclimation period to settle in and get used to their new enclosures. Understand that it will be a stressfull time for them and do not be surprised if they mope or even go off food during that time. It is normal.
Also do not misinterpret it as if they are missing each other. The facts are that these creatures live in solitary lives in natures and they do not form bonds with others of their kind. The only time they come together is for a short period of time to breed and then they go their separate ways again by choice.
Enjoy!

 

[Germ]

To add to Brett's excellent advice & recommendations. I'm guessing by the setup, that the 'Goose Neck' fixture is what is holding the UVB bulb. If that is the way it has been setup from the beginning, your BDs have never had effective, usable UVB. I am also willing to bet that it is only a 13W Repti-Glo 10.0 bulb, when it is the 25W-26W compact (If that is the type of bulb chosen to use) that is required to provide sufficient coverage, if setup properly. Regardless, the Fixture is too far away for either wattage of bulb. All UVB bulbs have very limited ranges, do not emit useable, effective UVB as far as the light shines, they also rapidly loose the effectiveness as the bulb ages with use & is why they must be regularly replaced. If your bulb has not been replaced yet, it must be after this amount of time (6 Months +). A 10.0's effective range is only 20" from a NEW bare unfiltered bulb (no screen). A fine screen can & will block\filter\reflect as much as 50+% of the effective, useable UVB from ever entering the enclosure, drastically reducing it's effective range accordingly. When mounted above a screen, a 10.0 26W must be within 8"-10" from the basking spot to be effective. Again, as set up now, your BDs have not been receiving any UVB. Mungi's Buddha has touched on a more effective UVB setup, with a UVB tube mounted inside under the screen to help rectify this.

I would also like to add, 10 Gallon tanks are BD killers, when used for a single youngster, let alone 2 housed together. We have had several BDs get seriously ill & die on this forum alone, directly because of 10 gal enclosures & the keepers came for help too late. The inability to provide the proper heat gradient, 110F Basking to 80F-85F Cool side, along with the inability to provide proper lighting coverage of both heat & UVB bulbs at the basking spot. Drastic changes are imperative ASAP, to ensure the health & wellbeing of your animals to improve & provide them with a long & healthy\happy life.

Also, where your probe for the digital thermometer is mounted, is no where near where the temps need to be measured from. The probe should be attached directly to the basking spot, the hottest spot in the enclosure that the BDs have access to, which would be the the brightest, whitest spot on the log directly below the heat bulb in the picture. Where it is mounted now, will give you the temp of the glass, half way up the back wall, where your BD will never be, the glass is affected as much by the outside ambient room temps as by the inside environment, causing very poor, inaccurate temp readings, not what the temp is actually at the basking spot, which is likely to be much hotter.

A really good example of why Crushed Walnut Shell is, as Brett mentioned, a dangerous substrate. Draw your own conclusions ... WARNING: QUITE GRAPHIC
http://mrskingsbioweb.com/beardeddragngrossanatomy.htm

There is so much wrong with this picture, that it gives me the shivers with concern for your BDs' welfare. Drastic changes are needed to be taken, like yesterday.

I sincerely hope that you will take heed of all the info provided to you here, for the sake of your BDs.

Your BDs' stunted growth, directly related to the poor setup\husbandry, may be reversible, but may have shortened their overall expected life span. By the way, what & how much does their diet consist of. Please provide their feeding schedule.

Good Luck to you & your BDs, without change very soon, they will need it.

This may all sound a little harsh, but this is a dire situation that has your BDs' health, welfare & wellbeing in serious jeopardy.

 

[EmyMargaret]

Wow... I'm feeling very overwhelmed. I honestly had no idea. I did everything the breeder & pet store told me. I found so much info about care and housing on Google. Nothing at all of things you guys have been telling me. I'm so sad that everything I've been doing is wrong! Thank you so much for straightening me out! I am terrified for my poor beardies and will get them correctly housed, heated, etc. ASAP.

The breeder told me that beardies only need to eat once a week, though I had learned otherwise from a care website. I feed them twice a day. Dried meal worms in the morning and vegetables in the afternoon (usually kail. They go crazy for kail!). I buy crickets once a week and they each usually eat 25-30 (my Mum and I have watched and counted on numerious occasions. Each watching a different lizard). I realize that this is a small amount, but after 25 they stop trying to catch the crickets and just let them crawl around.

Thank you again for all your help. Please be praying for Donatello and Rosina!

 

[EmyMargaret]

Also, my thermometer is on a suction cup. How would you suggest mounting it to the log? I'm assuming that tape is a bad idea.

 

[Germ]

I have used twist ties, zip ties, and/or velcro plant ties (my favorite) to fasten my thermometer sensors to my basking spots.

Your dragons should be fed live prey (crickets/roaches & periodically worms) once or twice a day, as much as they will eat in a 10 to 15 minute time span. Depending on the size of the crickets, some young dragons will eat anywhere from 20 to 50 crickets per day. Generally, I always limited mine to approximately 30-35 appropriately sized crix per day (Using the old rule of thumb of not feeding anything larger than the space between the BD's eyes), if they wanted that many.

There is a very good feeding and supplementation schedule provided in the bearded dragon care sheet - a place to start, whose link was provided to you earlier in this thread. Because of the size of your dragons, I would use the juvenile area of the schedule.

General feeding/supplementation schedule:

For hatchlings and young juveniles (up to 2 months): Fresh greens/veg. 1-2 times daily - Live prey 2-3 times per day
Dusted: All Live Prey five days per week with phosphorus free calcium – one day per week calcium with D3 - One day per week with a vitamin supplement such as Reptivite or Herptivite.

For juveniles and sub-adults (2 months to sexual maturity): Fresh greens/veg 1-2 times daily - Live prey 1-2 times per day
Dusted: All Live Prey five days per week with phosphorus free calcium – One day per week with calcium with D3 - One day per week with a vitamin supplement such as Reptivite or Herptivite.

For adults (generally 1+ year): Fresh greens/veg 1- 2 times daily - Live prey every 2-3 days.
Dusted: Live Prey every other feeding with phosphorus free calcium - Twice per month with calcium with D3 - One day per week with a vitamin supplement such as Reptivite or Herptivite.

Read More: http://www.beardeddragonforum.com/index.php?threads/basic-bd-care-sheet-a-place-to-start.5177/

As far as greens go, sticking to as many of the veggies highlighted in green, that is available to you in your area, from the 'Beautiful Dragons nutrition guide', provided above, and you should be good to go.

Good luck, the community is here to give you any help that we can, to get your dragons into their proper care, so you can all enjoy many long, happy and healthy years together.

 

[EmyMargaret]

Greetings!
I wanted to give you an update on how Donatello and Rosina are doing. You helped me to see that I needed to make some drastic changes and fast. The weekend after the above posts, I separated my beardies. They are each now in 20 gal. long tanks. (I didn't have the money to buy 2 40 gal at the time) I am using the UVB tube bulb by repti that Germ suggested. I'm now using paper towels as a substrate.
Both beardies seem to have adjusted nicely. They are eating more and shedding more often. Both of them have had a huge growth spurt (especially Donny). Donatello is a little over 1 ft and Rosina is about an inch behind him.
Thank you for all your help and advice.
At what size do you usually make the move to 40 gal. tanks?
Thanks again for everything. Below are pictures of my new set up and of the happy beardies. Both terrariums are the same.

 

[Germ]

Glad to hear that they are doing better.

Check out this link, for proper UVB setup. As it is setup now, your BD will be receiving very little UVB, if any at all, because it does not have access anywhere near close enough to the center portions of the tube UVB.

UVB Setup