Being " Behind the times"

[crypticdragons]

I was talking with a breeder earlier that i know about some health issues that he had pop up in a trans male his buddy purchased from an unknown source (least unknown to me) anyway that not the point. During our discussion he asked me when i planned to move over to having Leather and Translucent breeding projects. I told him i didnt plan too as i prefer the nice spikey dragons we have had for decades and do not plan to move into the trans line as there is too much "mud" in the bloodline in my opinion. He told me I am behind the times and will eventually not even be able to give my dragons away cause within a year or 2 all people will want is trans and leathers (or variations of the two) and wont care about "normal" high color dragons. What do yall think? Do you think, judging on the current state of things and your opinion of the future of dragons, do you think that breeders that do not breed the "extreme" morphs will be yesterdays news soon? I think there will always be people that prefer nicely colored robust dragons to what the trans and leathers are like but thats just my opinion.

 

[DragonMom]

:-X

 

[Red Ink AUS]

Quick asnwer to your post brian. Breeding normals as he puts it is not being "behind the times", it's just that breeding the newer fancy morphs is being in "front of the money" lol.

Stick to your guns my mate I promise you in a couple of years time as he said it's not the popularity of these morphs that ethical breeders have to worry about, it's going to be all the underlying problems that "money breeders" don't tell people of their weak and degrading genetics. When people get sick and tired of the shorthened lifespan, neurological problems (happens to bodaies due to morph breeding particularly "tiger Jags"), weak genetic base leading to organ failure, and eventually the over saturation of the market. Then the much stronger "normal" line breeders with their healthy dragons can pretty much charge whatever they want for their specimens (come uppins my friend you just have to wait for it )

 

[crypticdragons]

The money has never been my worry its producing strong animals and finding them well informed homes. This guy just rubbed me the wrong way i suppose lol.

 

[TheWolfmanTom]

Big and colorful, you can never go wrong.
I have 1 leatherback in my collection now and she is only going to be 1 small part of my future breeding plans.
Even the hypo male I have is going to be a monster in his own right.
I will stick to big spiky colorful poopers for the most part.

 

[sara]

Brian,Simply put,I prefer my spikey babies. That's part of what attracted me to beardies in the first place and the adorable way they look with their beards puffed out. My 2 do this almost daily in the mornings and I LOVE it. It gives them more character or something,without their spikes they look like snakes with legs eeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwww.

 

[beardielover17]

Brian, I could write you a book on this topic but I'll try to put it as short as possible. You will always have people who love the colorful and well established and spikey dragons. The leathers, and silks and dwarfs and the silk translucent firebreathing hypo flying invisible (lol ok i went overboard on the "morph" name there) are going to die out in my opinion. With people putting them at such a high price, who the hell in their right mind has the money to spend on it? Those "morphs" (and I use that term loosely) only cater to those with money coming out of their nose, not the everyday keeper. There are far more of the everyday keeper in the trade than those with tons of money so they will be nothing more than the equivalent to the teacup breed dogs that are like $6000 a piece and only so few people will get them. To me, I love a good spikey and colorful dragon. The spikes are what makes the dragon appearance. The lack of scales makes them no better than amphibian or leopard gecko. It hardly qualifies them as a "dragon"

 

[crypticdragons]

guess i hit a hot topic

 

[ladyknite]

Behind the times……..What does that mean exactly?
Does it mean that you don’t keep up with modern conveniences?
Does it mean that you’re not up to date on world politics?
Does it mean that you don’t necessarily conform to a portion of a hobby and it’s practices?

Who remembers the mini skirts, platform shoes, muscle cars and hippies? They’ve all been around. Some form of those eras come back around time and time again. Does it mean that the people that continued those habits from their origin were ahead of the game? That would mean that people that adapted to them were…….behind the times then……

We house the natural forms of nature in places like the Smithsonian and other museums. Once beautiful in their own way, they are now memories of what used to be. Some of this is the result of man, some the result of nature. We incorporate “Endangered Species” lists for those thought to be on the decline, both in captivity and natural element. Yet how many of those endangered species did we as men bring to that point?

Fortunately, with export laws as they are, the resource in OZ protects the dragons from the “In the times” mindset of some.

Personally, there’s too much to the make up of the trans to appeal to me. I like the hardy, resourceful bearded dragon. Not so much the eye poppin color combinations. Unfortunately, buyers seek color. They seek out those breeders that make fabulous advertisements with mind blowing babies. I suppose they don’t stop to consider photoshop being used. (specific breeders). Popularity brings about a lot of sales. Now I ask you……….on most forums when posters ask about a problem with their dragon…….how many of you have seen the assumption that it was their husbandry, their lighting, relocation. How many times has the breeder been addressed? Not to imply it is always their issue…..only that as the person that raised that baby until this time, they would be the best source of information.

Francis said it well.

Breeding normals as he puts it is not being "behind the times", it's just that breeding the newer fancy morphs is being in "front of the money" lol.

 

[crypticdragons]

Now if we could only educate people on the very same information we are talking about itd be a better hobby. But all in all there will always be "limit pushers" that want to create the newest craziest thing. And as long as their are people with deep enough pockets to fund it/buy it i guess it will always be there.

 

[beardielover17]

With that being said Brian, as long as there are people with morals and pure love and respect for these animals, the spikeys and normals will still be here too

 

[zebraflavencs]

Amen.
Janie

 

[northface75]

hah, not trying to breathe life into an old post, but I'm new so this is the first time I've seen it ;D

Here's my two pennies. As someone who IS relatively new to bearded dragons I will tell you this, the people who buy bearded dragons, people who HAVEN'T owned them before, DO NOT even know about these magical special morphs. So there will always be a demand for healthy, "regular" dragons. Why? Apart from not knowing about these morphs, PRICE. A novice isnt going to walk into a pet store and think, oh cool! A dragon! oh, wait, five hundred dollars? nahhh. but they WILL see one for 35 or 50 bucks and think, yea! awesome! I know this, because I was that very person a slim eight months ago. (I paid 25 bucks apiece for my two girls)

now, on the other hand. the specialty market is not going to die, to think it will....well, just look at the snake market, or, as mentioned, dogs. morphs are not going to go away, there will always be a demand. The "Designer Beardies" market will grow, and they will sell for outrageous prices, because people ARE willing to pay for an off the wall morph. We can speak out against it, we can warn of the dangers its creating in an already shallow gene pool, but if theres a dollar to be made, it will continue, and you can quote me on that. I may not know beardies NEARLY as well as you guys, but I do know retail, and human nature.

just my $.02

 

[TheWolfmanTom]

I will chime in again here. As a breeder and vendor I see people selling alot of hypos, trans, leatherback, ect ect. Wgile for a good portion of the show I sit there with my well bred colorful animals. Im proud of the animals I produce, and although I will never compromise my standars on age, health or size before going to sale, Im not going to lie, I cant help but think of trying my hand at the diff morphs to at least be competative. Its kind of becoming a moral dilema for me right now.

 

[beardielover17]

Tom, I say why not try some. You practice good husbandry and you love your animals despite how much they eat you out of house and home. What would easily set you apart from a lot is the quality of your animals due to your pure love for them. Not just the money.

 

[northface75]

that kind of fortifies my argument, GOOD honest people will have to dabble in 'morphs' just to remain competitive. and you know, I might get flamed for this, but it is possible some of these designer beardies arent in any way damaging the gene pool of beardies? For example, look at albino crocodiles. Now, the absense of pigmentation is nothing more than a recessive gene but it does show up in one out of so many hundred babies. of course in the wild, this baby would NEVER survive, but in captivity it will survive just fine. Does that harm the gene pool? No, its just a recessive trait. I'm not saying that these different morphs aren't hurting the strength of the species, I'm no geneticist, you guys know way more about it than I do.

 

[crypticdragons]

No matter what at the end of the day the health issues associated with the Translucent line make them something that I personally will never bring into my home. I have been toying with the idea of perhaps bringing a leather into my collection at some point but I will not own a translucent. It is a line that carries far more risks than rewards. And if it is whats required to be competitive than I would personally choose not to be competitive. Just my opinion.

 

[Red Ink AUS]

that kind of fortifies my argument, GOOD honest people will have to dabble in 'morphs' just to remain competitive. and you know, I might get flamed for this, but it is possible some of these designer beardies arent in any way damaging the gene pool of beardies? For example, look at albino crocodiles. Now, the absense of pigmentation is nothing more than a recessive gene but it does show up in one out of so many hundred babies. of course in the wild, this baby would NEVER survive, but in captivity it will survive just fine. Does that harm the gene pool? No, its just a recessive trait. I'm not saying that these different morphs aren't hurting the strength of the species, I'm no geneticist, you guys know way more about it than I do.

First thing "what gene pool"?

And yes they are damaging (well genetic diffrerences anyway not colourationmorphs).
The problem of the morph mentality is not the result (well in silkbacks it is) but the process of making them.
Again what gene pool? So for anything fancy to appear it needs to be severely line bred. Clolouration is fine, size is fine these are inheritable traits that you don't need tio line breed for merely selectively breed. Once you are trying to bring out a reccessive gene for the lack of a better term to use "make it dominant" (hets) you only achieve that by breeding the reccesive gene within it self. That damages health and genetic integrity all so i can say look at my new morph it's has see through skin and no scales, are'nt i clever? That'll be $4000 dollars by the way.

 

[northface75]

okay, heres a question, as I'm trying to learn all these different morphs and such, whats the difference between hypo and translucent??

I've just been checking out different designer breeders and its a lot to take in. Like Brians dragon "Orion", hypo, beautiful white dragon, thats just a product of selective breeding correct?

 

[crypticdragons]

okay, heres a question, as I'm trying to learn all these different morphs and such, whats the difference between hypo and translucent??

I've just been checking out different designer breeders and its a lot to take in. Like Brians dragon "Orion", hypo, beautiful white dragon, thats just a product of selective breeding correct?

Hypo dragons are lacking dark pigmentation
Translucents have literally see through skin and solid black eyes.

the hypo trait popped up in many different collections when it first originated (I have no idea how long ago but i know it was a long time). And yes it has had its health problems associated with it as well. It took me a lot to talk myself into working with Hypo's but if you work with them correctly you can get some good healthy results.

Translucent morph is only 9-10 years old (the very first pair popped up around the turn of the century overseas). Problem with the trans line is that it appears that all translucents are descended from that one original pair. hence the issues you get when breeding translucent dragons. Also, with the trans gene you have to breed a trans to a trans or a het to a het or a trans to a het to be able to produce translucent offspring. This strengthens any hereditary deformities they carry and cause problems with the offspring.

With the hypo line you can breed a hypo to a normal and you will still end up with some hypo offspring, so you can outcross the line and still produce a desired offspring.