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Phoenix Worm/Reptiworm Questions

Frankie Bedford

Bearded Dragon Egg
Messages
18
I've recently heard a lot about Phoenix worms and Reptiworms. As I understand it they are basically the same thing, correct?
My main question to you all is whether or not you recommend these worms and why or why not? Also, if you DO recommend them, how often do you feed them and how many? How do you store them?
I've heard people say they replaced their crickets with one of these worms - are you able to do that? Or do you suggest splitting it 50-50 with crickets?

Thanks so much guys! :)
 

Germ

Bearded Dragon Veteran
3 Year Member
1,000+ Post Club
Messages
4,500
Location
North America
Not just basically the same thing, they are the same thing, also known as the 'Calci Worm', just different Breeder's names (To add to the confusion) for the Maggots or Larvae of the Black Soldier Fly.

They are a good feeder in that they have a much higher Calcium to Phosphorus Ratio than many/most of the other popular feeders today. This is a good article that may help to understand the importance of Calcium & it's relationship to Phosphorous & Fat vs Protein.

: P without the space is the code for this smiley ":p", so where you see the smiley, it altogether should read Ca: P (without the space between the colon & the 'P')
leedspetshops.co.uk said:
Ca:p Ratio and Reptiles
leedspetshops.co.uk said:
Many have heard about the Ca:p ratio but not many understand what it means to your reptiles. The Ca:p ratio is simply the ratio of Calcium compared to Phosphorus and so a Ca:p ratio of 1 (one or 1:1) would mean that Calcium & Phosphorus are found in equal quantities, a Ca:p ratio of 0.5 (half or 0.5:1) means that there is half the amount of Calcium than there is Phosphorus. An ideal Ca:p ratio would be around 2 (two or 2:1) as this will allow calcium to be easily absorbed.

So why is this important? It has to do with the way Calcium is absorbed by your reptile's intestine. For any calcium to be absorbed, there needs to be at least equal quantities of Calcium and Phosphorus in their food. If the Phosphorus is much higher, then not only will it prevent calcium being absorbed, but may even leach calcium that is already present in your reptile's body. This can lead to serious problems such as MBD (Metabolic Bone Disease). When Calcium and Phosphorus are dissolved in equal quantities, it forms an insoluble salt (Calcium Phosphate) which is very difficult to absorb by your reptile's intestine. If there is a large amount of phosphorus compared to the calcium, then all the calcium will be bound by the phosphorus and none will be available for your reptile. If there is a large excess of calcium, then no phosphorus can be absorbed, which is also a vital mineral but not needed in as large a quantity as calcium. Ideally the Ca/P ratio for most vertebrates is around 2 (also written as 2:1).

Fat vs Protein

Another thing to look out for is the amount of fat compared to protein. Fat contains twice as many calories as protein, but doesn't provide any of the nutritional benefits that are gained from proteins from their amino acids which are essential for the health of any living creature. The calories from fat are often called "empty calories" in dietary terminology. Most insectivorous reptiles will receive greater benefit from a high protein/low fat diet.
With that being said, here is a comparison chart of some common feeders.

chart2.jpg
If nothing else was fed at all & Reptiworms were the only food, no veggies or anything else, Dusting with Calcium may not be necessary because they have a Calcium to Phosphorous ratio in the required ball park. But it is not the only food being served, so should be dusted anyway to help make up for the veggies & other foods that may not be. I have been told that they are easier to digest than many feeders, but have not seen any actual documentation to back up that claim.
Some of the disadvantages are that they are very small, takes a lot of worms per feeding. They have 150+% the fat that crickets do, with 80% the protein. It has recently come to light on this forum, that they do not handle higher heat very well, so care must be exercised there. You don't really feed them, so they can not be gutloaded.
In my opinion, it is all personal preference. I have never used them & probably never will, for basically the same simple reason that I personally don't feed mealworms. They are just too small for larger BDs & so many are required per feeding & dusting with Calcium is still necessary in most cases, depending on the Ca: P ratio of other foods being fed.
The above Calcium to Phosphorous ratio etc, should also be taken into consideration when feeding Greens. Collard Greens have a very high Ca: P ratio (14.5:1) & are an excellent staple green.
Hope this helps somewhat in your choices.
 

Frankie Bedford

Bearded Dragon Egg
Messages
18
thank you so much! This is really helpful! Thanks for all the info - it's good to know that it's just down to personal choice. Sort of frustrating that they're so small though.

Thanks again! :)
 

drgnfly2265

Juvenile Dragon
3 Year Member
Messages
611
Location
Florida
I used Reptiworms as the main feeder for my beardies and the feeders were great! Once the beardie get to a "juvenile" size I started ordering the large. It's easier to get them out of the substrate that they were in, lol.
 

BDMOM

Bearded Dragon Egg
Messages
9
I order 1000 medium Phoenix Worms every two weeks for my five month old beardie. I wasn't too fond of the crickets:eek:! So, they're her staple live feeder. It's been six weeks and she loves them. I store them in an Igloo cooler with two ice packs and they last for the two weeks that it takes her to get through them.
 

Frankie Bedford

Bearded Dragon Egg
Messages
18
i bought 100 medium sized phoenix worms last week and Moses went nuts for them. He immediately rushed the bowl and gobbled them all up. Needless to say i went back to order more since 100 wont last him long when he eats 15-20 in one sitting lol.
 

Deac77

Bearded Dragon Egg
Messages
18
Location
Texas
They are not bad in my opinion I use horn worms and roaches as my staple since I hate crickets
 

Josh

Administrator
Staff member
3 Year Member
1,000+ Post Club
Messages
1,471
Location
Redlands, CA
I'm not a big fan of crickets either! I think dubia are the way to go
 

Mairzee Dotes

Bearded Dragon Egg
Messages
8
I order 1000 medium Phoenix Worms every two weeks for my five month old beardie. I wasn't too fond of the crickets:eek:! So, they're her staple live feeder. It's been six weeks and she loves them. I store them in an Igloo cooler with two ice packs and they last for the two weeks that it takes her to get through them.

Do you have to keep replacing the ice packs every day or do they not melt? What size ice packs are you using?
 

Germ

Bearded Dragon Veteran
3 Year Member
1,000+ Post Club
Messages
4,500
Location
North America
The feeding of almost any type of worm as it's staple food can be detrimental to the overall health of your BD. Almost all worms have a much higher fat content than many other common feeders.
 

Mairzee Dotes

Bearded Dragon Egg
Messages
8
So...if I don't do roaches, would you suggest I just use the crickets as the staple food (plus the greens & veggies, of course) & just throw in a couple of super worms a few times a week for each one?
 

Aleena

Bearded Dragon Veteran
1,000+ Post Club
Messages
1,996
Location
Utah
So...if I don't do roaches, would you suggest I just use the crickets as the staple food (plus the greens & veggies, of course) & just throw in a couple of super worms a few times a week for each one?
Assuming, of course, that your BD's are large enough for the Supes.
 

drgnfly2265

Juvenile Dragon
3 Year Member
Messages
611
Location
Florida
Both of my girls grew up on Reptiworms as their main protein source. They are healthy and doing great. Of course they were also feed their greens and every now and then they would get a treat of hornworms or waxworms.
 

Vincent

Hatchling Dragon
Messages
160
bearded dragons need a variety of foods to mak up a better healthy diet. they just say that load of crap so u can buy their product. i mean their a business , they try to trick u. ( they need a variety of foods)
 

drgnfly2265

Juvenile Dragon
3 Year Member
Messages
611
Location
Florida
bearded dragons need a variety of foods to mak up a better healthy diet. they just say that load of crap so u can buy their product. i mean their a business , they try to trick u. ( they need a variety of foods)
Thats why I love forums. They let you listen to other owners experiences and let you determine what you feel is best for your beardie. And I agree, a variety in the diet is always a good thing to provide.
 

Pat B

Super Moderator
Messages
1,469
Location
Columbia SC
I wish that my little Spike like a variety of food. I give him greens, fruits, vegetables and he turns up his nose and eats the heck out of crickets and mealies....go figure....little booger!! :rolleyes:
 

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